15-09-2003 01:15									#91
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Hippies have dominated both sides as I see it. A lot of talk about peace, understanding and working together in the European family. Not enough solid economic debate.

	15-09-2003 01:15									#92
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quote: PA, well i think if blair seriously thought he could win a vote on the euro he would hold one tomorrow regardless of the economics.

I don't think it's possible for a vote on the Euro to be won unless "the economics" are right. We aren't stupid. So your above point is pretty much irrelevant.

	15-09-2003 01:19									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin Hippies have dominated both sides as I see it. A lot of talk about peace, understanding and working together in the European family. Not enough solid economic debate.

See? That's the prevalent attitude that made this referendum impossible to win. People on the left using neo-liberal arguments about economics...

	15-09-2003 01:20									#94
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well maybe not, but the point is that blair only cares about the economics to serve his political goals.

	15-09-2003 01:28									#95
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The results can be explained easily: Swedes came for holiday in Greece, saw everything having a 100% raise after the euro and said: "We won't be as dumb as the Greeks". And they were right.

According to an investigation made by SCB the inflation over the last three years has been about the same in countries that have introdused the Euro, and in others. It might have been a slightly jum duriong the change, but it's taken out by smaller changes later on.

	15-09-2003 01:31									#96
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3108292.stm

quote: Sweden says No to euro Sweden has voted decisively to reject the euro in a referendum held days after the killing of Foreign Minister Anna Lindh. With results in from 80% of districts the No-side has 57% against 41% for the Yes-side. Prime Minister Goran Persson has conceded defeat. RESULTS FROM 80% OF DISTRICTS Against euro: 57% In favour: 41% Undecided ballot: 2% Muted celebration in No-camp Lindh was the main face of the Yes campaign, and most opinion polls after her stabbing in a Stockholm department store showed support for the euro rising. However, the No side was able to hang on to the majority it had right through the campaign. Outpouring of grief The BBC's Chris Morris in Stockholm says Sweden may vote on the euro again, but is now likely to remain outside the eurozone for at least a decade. Opponents of euro membership in Britain and Denmark - the other two EU countries outside the eurozone - will take heart, he adds. The result also means that euro has failed its first test since the new notes and coins were introduced at the beginning of last year. Outside a polling station: Swedes tell how they voted - and why In pictures All Sweden's main political parties were campaigning in favour of euro membership, along with the business community. However, the No-camp struck a chord with voters by pointing out that Sweden had higher growth and lower unemployment than the eurozone. It also benefited from fears that euro membership could lead to the erosion of Sweden's generous welfare state.

	15-09-2003 01:43									#97
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Buck: I asked for solid economics, not neo-liberal dito.

	15-09-2003 02:16									#98
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We obviuosly have a string of stubborn resisters in the norteast corner on Europe:

Sweden-Norway-Denmark and United Kingdom

	15-09-2003 04:39									#100
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Yeah. They'll keep voting until they get the required result. Look at the Irish.

And of course, after repeatedly organizing referendum to get the expected result, it is completely illegal to organize a referendum to pull out.
WTG European Democracy !

	15-09-2003 05:46									#101
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That's called the "roach motel".

	15-09-2003 05:47									#102
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Why hasn't anybody blamed the US? Or at least Bush? Come on. We crave the attention.

	15-09-2003 06:30									#103
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"The BBC's Chris Morris in Stockholm says Sweden may vote on the euro again, but is now likely to remain outside the eurozone for at least a decade. "
Maybe this is the most tragic thing for Swedish economy but people will descover it after 2-3 years... it's being more dramatic if you thought that the left parties and 'nazi' had the... SAME opinion about this vote! After Denmark and Sweden only UK left: we have a clear view about next big 'european' step: with 12 or 13 countries (if UK join) we will have a 'superstate'. I think that Irish people thought and voted much more for their future than their present like Swedish today... :-)

	15-09-2003 15:39									#104
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quote: Euro rallies against krona as Swedes vote "no" By Christopher Brown-Humes and Nicholas George in Stockholm, Clare MacCarthy in Copenhagen and Jea Published: September 14 2003 19:24 | Last Updated: September 15 2003 7:35 The euro turned higher on Monday after Sweden on Sunday night delivered a crushing rejection of the single currency, turning its back on closer integration with Europe and dealing a savage blow to its own leaders. In early trade on Monday, the euro had risen to SKr9.1915 against the krona, from SKr9.1070 at the close on Friday. Against the dollar, the single currency weakened a little to $1.1250 from $1.1301 on Friday. "The relatively strong performance of Sweden's economy and concern over the recent unpunished breaches of the stability pact by countries such as France undoubtedly contributed to the outcome," said Mitul Kotecha at Credit Agricole Indosuez. "The krona is likely to remain vulnerable over coming days, with a test of euro support at around SKr9.28 likely." An expected sympathy vote for Anna Lindh, the foreign minister who was murdered last week, failed to materialise. Göran Persson, the prime minister, said the result was clear and would be "very easy to respect". He added: "There is a deep scepticism to the whole Emu project among the Swedish people." The referendum result was 56.1 per cent against and 41.8 per cent for. There were 2.1 per cent blank votes and the turnout was 81.2 per cent. Only the Stockholm region and Skane in the south of the country voted in favour. By early trade on Monday, the euro had risen to SKr9.1915 against the krona, from SKr8.0586 at the close on Friday. Against the dollar, the single currency weakened a little to $1.1250 from $1.1301 on Friday. The decision to keep the krona effectively banishes any prospect of Tony Blair holding a euro referendum in the UK before the next general election, lobbyists for the single currency conceded. The No campaigners in Britain claimed the result highlighted the "huge difficulty that the government would have winning a vote in Britain, where opposition is even higher". In Denmark, which rejected the single currency three years ago, Anders Fogh Rasmussen, the prime minister, insisted that the result would have no impact on whether the Danes voted again. "Danes will make their decisions completely independently of what has happened in Sweden," he said. Romano Prodi, president of the European Commission, predicted Sweden would lose influence in Europe. A strong reaction to the Swedish referendum is expected from financial markets, which had not expected such an emphatic decision. Analysts have predicted that the krona would weaken sharply against the euro on Monday morning. "This is a clear rejection by Sweden of the single currency and the government will not be revisiting the situation for some time," said Tim Stewart, chief currency strategist at Morgan Stanley in New York. The decision to keep the krona represents a rejection by Swedes of the political and business establishment that strongly favoured euro membership. Mr Persson admitted that the timing for the campaign had been poor, with several of the leading eurozone economies in recession and squabbling over the rules that underpin the region's financial stability. Many voters felt Sweden was doing better outside the euro, with stronger growth, lower unemployment and stable public finances. They also felt that cherished welfare programmes were better safeguarded by an independent monetary policy. The No means Sweden remains the only EU member outside both the euro and the Nato defence alliance, underscoring an isolationist streak in the country's psyche. It also leaves the country in a peculiar position because, unlike Denmark and the UK, it does not have a formal opt-out from the single currency. It represents a significant setback for Mr Persson who failed to convince his fellow Swedes of the euro's benefits. He now faces the task of uniting his own Social Democratic Party, which was deeply divided over the issue. But he made it clear he would not resign. The vote comes at the end of one of the most emotional weeks in Sweden's recent history after the murder of Ms Lindh, an ardent euro supporter. Celebrations by the No side were muted because of this.

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727085

I guess that leaves the Pound safe as well.

	15-09-2003 15:51									#106
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Anna Lindh must be rolling in her grave...

	15-09-2003 15:51									#107
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quote: EU TELLS SWEDEN: YOUR LOSS Sun Sep 14 2003 20:04:48 ET The European Commission tonight regretted Sweden's failure to join the euro - insisting the "No" vote was the nation's loss, rather than Europe's. A robust statement issued in Brussels said Sweden was missing out on the chance to be a part of the world's "second-most important" currency. But the result is a blow to hopes in Brussels that a positive Swedish vote would galvanise the UK and Denmark - the only other non-euro EU nations - into signing up too. The Swedish result means a UK referendum on the single currency in the near future is even less likely than before. Fears about national sovereignty and economic instability put paid to a Swedish "Yes". A clear majority of Swedish voters decided not to ditch their national currency largely because of uncertainty about the youthful euro's long-term prospects. The fact that the French government is currently embroiled in a very public row with Brussels over the economic rules for running the single currency played into the hands of "No" campaigners. But the commission insisted tonight that the euro was delivering economic stability to those countries using it. The statement said: "We firmly believe that the euro, our currency, has brought and will continue to bring advantages to the euro area economy. "The euro has provided much-needed stability in the individual member states' economies and has created an appropriate springboard to make Europe the most competitive and socially-cohesive area in the world. "It has also contributed to international financial stability. "The euro is the world's second most important currency but it is still a young currency. Its full impact has still to work its way through to the euro area economy and that is what we are in the process of achieving together. "Sweden could have influenced this effort by deciding to join the euro. We are confident that the Swedish government will choose the way forward to keep the euro project alive in Sweden." The leader of the UK's Liberal Democrats in the European Parliament, Graham Watson, also insisted that euro membership was "almost inevitable for Sweden, as well as for the UK and Denmark. "Sweden has voted no because the Swedish government failed to inspire people about the wider benefits of European unity. "There is a lesson here for Tony Blair: continued self-exclusion from the euro will bring a crushing loss of investment and political influence and increased vulnerability to money market turmoil. "Eventual membership is almost inevitable - sadly the Swedish people will discover that the hardest way to cross a ravine is in two leaps". The German leader of the centre-right European People's Party in the European Parliament, Hans-Gert Poettering, also regretted the Swedish result. He said it was now up to those countries already in the single currency zone to continue with the policy of maintaining currency stability, confirming the euro as a world currency: "Only in this way will people be convinced of the value of this new currency" he added.

http://www.drudgereport.com/flash1.htm

	15-09-2003 15:54									#108
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quote: "Sweden has voted no because the Swedish government failed to inspire people about the wider benefits of European unity. "There is a lesson here for Tony Blair: continued self-exclusion from the euro will bring a crushing loss of investment and political influence and increased vulnerability to money market turmoil. "Eventual membership is almost inevitable - sadly the Swedish people will discover that the hardest way to cross a ravine is in two leaps".

You can almost hear The Emporer's Theme from Star Wars rising in the background...

	15-09-2003 16:03									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Anna Lindh must be rolling in her grave...

She's still in the mortuary.

	15-09-2003 16:04									#110
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Anna Lindh must be rolling in her grave (2)

	15-09-2003 16:52									#111
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She's still in the mortuary. (2)

	15-09-2003 16:54									#112
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You can almost hear The Emporer's Theme from Star Wars rising in the background... (2)

	15-09-2003 17:11									#113
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Mad Monk: Seems like they are over doing it. The effects on the market has been marginal so far. Besides, the market has probably, due to the polls, been prepared for a 'No'-vote for months now.

	15-09-2003 17:14									#114
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Spotty K, why did you vote No?

	15-09-2003 17:21									#115
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Why, is it something wrong to be sceptical about the 'new gold standard'?

	15-09-2003 17:24									#116
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I think you did because you're a lousy commie. A true capitalist votes for single currency and free market.

	15-09-2003 17:30									#117
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I see you got about the same level on your arguments as both sides did during the campaign...

	15-09-2003 17:32									#118
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I'm not sure but I suppose so, yes.

	15-09-2003 17:48									#119
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A very low level that is. If I now should briefly answer your question. First off, I have to point out that I didn't find it to be a easy question to answer. There's so many levels to it and most answers lies in the future, something I know very little about. Now for the arguments against; I haven't seen that the introduction of the euro has lead to a significantly better development in the euro-zone that outside. Quite the opposite actually. It's of cource possible to claim that it would have been even worse without it or that the effects are better in the long run. Who knows? I can only see that doesn't seem to make that much of a difference. I'm part of a bizzare group of people that thinks that welfare and growth is created by production of goods and services. Further, as I see it, there's a lot of risks involved for a small country to get attached to a gigant like this. There's a bunch of people that claim that Europe is not a perfect region for a single currency. They have a point with that but neither is Sweden. That seems to be a stupid nationalistic argument too me but I still agree with it. I think that the Euro-zone is so large that it could be very bad for regions in the periphery. It's not as flexible as the system Sweden has now with a floating currency. It might be unstable, but I prefer to get the schocks as soon as possible instead of later. It's better that Sweden goes through a crash than the entire continent. On the other hand the 'yes'-votes have a few good arguments, a single currency will probably help to increase trade. I'm not so convinced it will have (or would have) a huge impact though. As for all those arguments for joining hands with Europe and work for peace and all that other hippie-crap. Well, I barf in their general direction.

	15-09-2003 18:47									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie ...in the norteast corner on Europe: Sweden-Norway-Denmark and United Kingdom

Geography challenged?