19-09-2003 05:40									#31
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by fanes7 We can consider a situation like this: You have a savefileA, you save this file as savefileB, so you can play with savefileB. After Leader appeared by using savefileB, you can too create Leader by using savefileA in same way.

Yes that is true and is not the issue. If you have two saves that are identical and play them identically with a preserved RNG, you get the same results, we know that.

	19-09-2003 05:54									#32
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by fanes7 Yesterday my leader appeared at 3150BC, very lucky!

Well that is nice, but the statement does us little good. what is needed is a log that can be replicated.

What Saberwolf was saying is that he used a tool to look at the saves and saw that 10 reloads had occurred in the space of 20 turns. This would seem excessive for any normal stop/start play. One may stop a couple of times in a day, maybe more. 10 in 20 turns suggest an effort to alter the outcome.
I say suggest as I have had a few occasion where I was being interrupted, but probably not 10 in 20 turns. Well at the height of my problems with crashing, I had to load over and over to get past a single turn. That was corrected by a new video card.

Anyway what is needed is a log of steps leading up to the leader. A save some time near that point, so people can duplicate the run. Getting a number of leaders to met the claim of getting all wonders and then it is settled.
We said some time ago, if you are using massive reloads to get the elites and then the leaders, then just say so and we can go on our way.
Are you now saying you must have a huge map to perform the feat? It sounds like you are off and running as it sits.

	19-09-2003 06:56									#33
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What I would suggest: if fanes7 gets a leader, post the save game, say, 3-4 turns before it happens. Then post an exact log of every move including WF and diplomatic moves. That way, the player can replicate exactly the situation and see if it generates the leader.

	19-09-2003 08:00									#34
	Tired of ads?

Question: how do the saves record the number of reloads? It seems to me like you could do as fanes7 says: make two identical copies of a save file, tinker with one until you get a Great Leader, then play from the second one. The second save would have no record of tampering.

So if you had enough time you could do a more or less exhaustive run-through of all possible combats in the early-game, and then only keep the best results. You could hide this by making copies of the "clean" saves periodically.


Dominae

	19-09-2003 08:34									#35
	Free Will! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Dominae So if you had enough time you could do a more or less exhaustive run-through of all possible combats in the early-game, and then only keep the best results. You could hide this by making copies of the "clean" saves periodically.

This is a tricky topic.

There is something very appealing in the notion that the world is completely deterministic. Kind of absolves you from all blame, doesn't it?

Yet there is something repugnant there as well. I think that is what we are all responding to. Many of us (and fanes7 for sure) live for the "do over".

That just stinks!

Thank you fanes7, you have reminded me of why I love playing games in the first place.

When I game, I put my best foot forward and see what happens. Again and again if need be. Over time, I learn a little bit and then a little bit more and then, after that, even then a little bit more. Kind of like life it is.

End Rant.

- TT

	19-09-2003 09:03									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen vmxa1, got the .bix file Here's the save in PTW 1.14 version for fanes7. No excuses, let the leader hoarding begin...

I see only me download this file.

:-(

I wish you download this file too, and we can play it together. After you load this file in your PtW , I will tell you how to play and make the Leader appear in 3150BC,

Pls , thanks.

	19-09-2003 09:12									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well I have never had a leader by 3150, at least not that I can recall, so what is the point? Anyway the game will play a bit differently for anyone using 1.27F.
Anyway the game was put there for you to show us the way. We don't know how to do it.

	19-09-2003 09:13									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Dominae So if you had enough time you could do a more or less exhaustive run-through of all possible combats in the early-game, and then only keep the best results. You could hide this by making copies of the "clean" saves periodically. Dominae

Wow, I could think of a million better ways to spend my time than doing all that!!

	19-09-2003 09:18									#39
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Well I have never had a leader by 3150, at least not that I can recall, so what is the point? Anyway the game will play a bit differently for anyone using 1.27F.

I installed PTW 1.14 (on a separate directory) to make the save game. I can try and replicate his results with that copy.

	19-09-2003 09:19									#40
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

hehe... The history can't be changed, and that is why we play the game,

All of us want to load the history at 4000BC or other time-point and replay the history , So all we do in the game is find a right path for history , what is the most efficient , most peaceful , most civilized and most glorious route for the thousands of history paths.


hehe, I said this before. Game means history can be changed. Because the Central Kindom 's glorious pass , he is always the most strong one in the game , both in AgeofEmpire and Civ

	19-09-2003 09:26									#41
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

What?

	19-09-2003 09:26									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I didn't realy understand this the first time you said it.
Me, I have no interest in the history part of it and pay no attention to it. I just like TBS.

	19-09-2003 09:31									#43
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I installed PTW 1.14 (on a separate directory) to make the save game. I can try and replicate his results with that copy.

Thanks Master Zen, now all you need is some to replicate other than rhetoric.

	19-09-2003 09:32									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

fanes7, there must be a huge language difficulty/barrier here, because I'm amazed at how you still do not understand that what you're doing is construed (by most people) as cheating.

It's your own game, you can do whatever you want with it. If you think that finding the best path (i.e. the one that creates the most Leaders) through the moves of any given game is fun, so be it.

But please understand that most people do not play that way. They play through the game once, without reloading to alter results (or "find the best path", as you put it). I doubt anyone on this strategy forum does it on a regular basis.

Therefore, you are playing by a different set of rules than everyone else here. So there's no point in bragging on these forums about how good a player you are, and how you've found a GL-generating "strategy". Your tip is not one of gameplay, but meta-gameplay. The "reload" option is not one that I consider "strategic".

It's as though we're in the Olympics, and you're using steroids. Sure, you might be faster/stronger than me, and you might even think its okay for you to be doing what you're doing. But for you to brag about how good you are, when really its just the drugs that give you an edge, is silly.


Dominae

	19-09-2003 09:54									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

This is the part that is so odd. His English seems pretty good to me and yet no matter how straight forward I put it, do you use reloads, no straight yes or no.
The only reason I have some interest, is I don't even see how it is possible to get all the wonders on deity with leaders by reloading. I can image some increase, but not on an almost demand basis. I guess the raging barbs is the key to getting up to the elite for all units. It sounds like a lot of work.

	20-09-2003 05:43									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Everyone can have a try , please . If you haven't enough selfconfident to build more Wonders, please see my uploaded savefile in UP, Using Greece I built almost all ancient Great Wonder in Athens.

vmxa, you just don't get it. It's perfectly clear that self-confidence is the only thing keeping us from building every wonder, and in the same city to boot.

"Hmmm, 3 more turns to the Great Wall, and nobody else is close. Do I dare build it? No, I better not."

	20-09-2003 05:59									#47
	Got spare money?

sounds like a panag DL playing a hoax

(come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised at all... btw check out how he'll magically appear afte this post)

	20-09-2003 06:09									#48
	Inflate your Upload Space

Remember fanes7 also stated he was one of the best players?

	20-09-2003 06:32									#49
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I noticed he posted his 3150 leader at CFC and it was closed as it is a no no to talk about it before you finish the ancient era.

Then in the spoiler again. On the 13th he says he finished the age, but no post since???

	20-09-2003 07:18									#50
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Dominae It's as though we're in the Olympics, and you're using steroids. Sure, you might be faster/stronger than me, and you might even think its okay for you to be doing what you're doing. But for you to brag about how good you are, when really its just the drugs that give you an edge, is silly. Dominae

Obviously, You know the rule clearly too.

In the Olympics, if you are using steroids or other unknow-drug , and NOT ANY apparatus can detect it . So you are innocent .

Before you have evidence, everybody is innocent in supposing.

In fact , there are never evidence to proof anybody cheating by his savefile (As I said the savefileA&savefileB) . You can't judge one man be cheating by your own supposing. And as I said before, if there is a jury to judge this thing , I would like to attend.

	20-09-2003 07:25									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Once again no clear response

	20-09-2003 07:28									#52
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

¸ÐлìøʦµÄÓÎÏ·´æµµ£¬µ«ÊÇÎÒ¿´µ½ÈÔȻֻÓÐÎÒÏÂÔØÁËËûµÄ
Îĵµ£¬ÎÒºÜʧÍû£¬²»¹ýÎÒ»¹ÊÇ°ÑÈçºÎÔÚ3150BC²úÉúÒ»¸öÁì
µ¼ÕߵĹý³ÌÌù³öÀ´£¬ÒòΪÊÇСµØͼ£¬ËùÒÔÎÒûÓÐÍæÏÂÈ¥¡£
ìøʦ¼ÈÈ»ÆðÁËÕâ¸öÃû×Ö£¬Ó¦¸Ã¿´µÃ¶®ºº×Ö°É£¿ºÇºÇ¡£

Thanks the Master Zen 's savefile, but I still see that only I downloaded his savefile, I'm very disappointed, but I 'm still post my step that the GL appears. Because it's a not-huge map, I don't play it since that .

Master Zen has a name like that , maybe you know some Han's word, hehe.

	20-09-2003 07:53									#53
	Got spare money?

If you use some drug in the Olympics that lets you run the 100m dash in under 5 seconds, I'm sure everyone would doubt your "innonence", regardless of any test that proves your guilt.

It's the same thing here. With no clear explanation of how you're getting all the Ancient era Wonders so easily, I think it's fair to assume that you're not playing straight.

This is all actually more akin to science than law. A scientist that finds the cure for cancer but cannot tell anyone how he does it will not be taken seriously. Regard us as your scientific peers: now, make us believe your claims. The burden of proof is on you. Saying "You guys should believe me by default" will simply not do.


Dominae

	20-09-2003 08:16									#54
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Does having a huge map make any probabilistic difference in generating a leader than a standard map? Nope.

Here's Han's word:

quote: Han Solo: Bring 'em on, I'd prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around!

	20-09-2003 08:22									#55
	Please sure you download Master Zen 's savefile ! Got spare money?

Because of my slowly PC, I set game like this, before you play the game, pls set it as mine.



4000BC:
Build city, and Worker go west ( Worker-w), set scient-rate - 0, and point your research aim in Monarch.

This is the 4000BC 's map&situation , nobad place.



3950BC:
Worker - road

3900BC:
Change city set, 3shield 2food.

For rapidly producing warrior, pls set city like this at 3900BC:




3850BC:
Nothing need do .

3800BC:
Build first warrior (W1), warrior go west (W1-w).

After you built a warrior, pls set city like this at 3800BC:




3750BC:
w1 - w ( Warrior 1 go west )


3700BC:
Worker - w , w1 - wn(WestNorth , for there is a lake at west)

3650BC:
Worker - r (road), w1 - w ( on a hill)

3600BC:
Population growed to 2 . Built 2nd Warrior.

so we can build warrior in 3 turns, change the city set 3shield 3food. (after 2 truns, change the city 4shield 2food to build warrior in 3 turns.)

w1 - w ( find hut) , w2 - w.


3550BC:
w1 - w ,
w2 - w - wn ,
worker - wn


3500BC:
w1 - w
w2 - w
worker - r (road)

Culture expand .

This is 3500BC map , pls check it with your own map , thx.




3450BC:
Built 3rd warrior. Change the city set 3shield 3food.

w1 - w
w2 - w
w3 - w


3400BC:

w1 - N
w2 - N (find barbarians)
w3 - W - WN - W
Worker - SE - S

This is 3400BC map , pls check it , thx.




3350BC:

w1 - find hut ( 3 barbarians)
w2 - w
w3 - w
worker - R

change the city 4shield 2food.

3300BC:
Built 4th warrior. Get a Veteran.
City will grow population , so don't change it. still 4shield 2food.

w1 - w
w2 - w
w3 - w
w4 - w

3250BC:

w1 - w
w2 - w
w3 - N
w4 - w - WN - W
worker - w ( on hill)

3200BC:
Population became 3. set happy-face 10%, change city to build Barrack.

w1 - W (find Ba)
w2 - w
w3 - WN
w4 - N
worker - R

As we find babylon , we must talk with them , and we find they have some new technologies , so we need trade.

Before you trade with Ba , pls set city like this , so you can get more from other Civ in trade.




This is the trade with Ba:




After trade , since we haven't enough gold , and we get all we want , so declare war with Ba.

Change the city 6 shield 1food to build Barrack


3150BC:
w1 - S
w2 - WN ( kill a barbarian)
w3 - N
w4 - W (kill a barbarian)
change the city 5 shield 2food.

This is the 3150BC map, pls check it , and after you sure no-error , pls pass this turn .

	20-09-2003 08:38									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Dominae If you use some drug in the Olympics that lets you run the 100m dash in under 5 seconds, I'm sure everyone would doubt your "innonence", regardless of any test that proves your guilt. It's the same thing here. With no clear explanation of how you're getting all the Ancient era Wonders so easily, I think it's fair to assume that you're not playing straight. This is all actually more akin to science than law. A scientist that finds the cure for cancer but cannot tell anyone how he does it will not be taken seriously. Regard us as your scientific peers: now, make us believe your claims. The burden of proof is on you. Saying "You guys should believe me by default" will simply not do. Dominae

;-) as I post above , ( if you downloaded Master Zen 's savefile ), I told you how to cure cancer . And if I like , I can run the 100m dash in under 5 seconds at any time , but the success is not the guilty evidence .

20 years ago or more before this , nobody can believe man can run the 100m dash in under 10 seconds , but now many athlete can do this .

The things is always changing .

Don't believe miracle , why do you build wonders ?

Pardon me, maybe you are too old to believe any glorious thing.

	20-09-2003 08:45									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Not glorious, fanes7, that's a reload.

	20-09-2003 09:38									#58
	Get a bigger avatar today!

So basically, your strategy is to have a nice start, build warriors like mad and send them directly at the other civ, without any knowledge of who they are, how far they are and how powerful they are...? With the raging barbs, you get a couple of promotions on the way and get a leader with your first elite win (a 1/16 chance)

As per the above screenshots and report, I do not see any leader or any evidence of someone being able to trigger a leader. You don't even have an elite warrior. And you think to win on a regular basis against AI spearmen...?

Good luck trying to convince someone else!

	20-09-2003 09:40									#59
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And to think I actually re-installed 1.14 just to see if this wasn't one big hoax...

	20-09-2003 09:46									#60
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I am too old to believe in miracles, but maybe I can run this tomorrow, with no reloads.
This requires that you win all the fights and get those promotions. this can not be guaranted by straight plaing. So this stategy will work some times, but not always. There is no unknow tactics revealed, we know how to micro mange citizens. It is a very aggresive style, but not unheard of or unseen.