20-09-2003 13:41									#61
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I have tried something like this with a Jag rush....

I had about 15 of the bastards running around, maybe 5 elites. Ended up taking out a civ with them, but no GL during the entire war...

	20-09-2003 17:22									#62
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by donegeal I have tried something like this with a Jag rush.... I had about 15 of the bastards running around, maybe 5 elites. Ended up taking out a civ with them, but no GL during the entire war...

That's because you're not a "great player" donegeal. You're not capable of "curing cancer" or some other wondrous thing.



Notice how fanes7 DAR stopped right at the point where he should start generating all his Great Leaders. Did he not find them this game, or is he still running through a bunch of test cases?

Sigh.

It's time for me to stop caring here.


Dominae

	20-09-2003 18:39									#63
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

dominae
give him some time to prove his case (or not)


general question: do you really get better trades, if you maximize the commerce before contacting (see 3200 BC)?

	20-09-2003 19:14									#64
	Got spare money?

He traded his new +11 gpt for tech. He then declared war cancelling it. After that no other civ is going to give him gpt deals. You can burn gpt deals this early in the game, but I prefer to do it later as you can get more for it.

	20-09-2003 19:55									#65
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

snotty: you can do any gpt deal, even if you don't have enough cash coming in.
it's not like the AI who won't pay a single gpt more than his domestic profit.

i also don't like breaking deals too early. if so, do it in the later game to catch up several techs, not just two early ones.
but then, we're not "great players" like fane7

	20-09-2003 21:00									#66
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Are you sure? I just run a quick test. Arabs had writing. I offered them +9gpt per turn plus 24 gold and they were insulted. I then changed my tax slider so I had +9gpt and offered them the same deal. This time we were close to making a deal. The AI knows when you are lieing about how much gpt you can give.

	20-09-2003 21:18									#67
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

oh, you're right
my bad!

	20-09-2003 23:38									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Almost no time for Civ (or civ-related activities like 'Poly) lately, so I haven't been around all that much . . . but a bit surprised that everyone is trying so hard to prove that fanes7 is either reloading, spoofing the game, or doing something similar.

Any claim to regularly generate one's first leader in the 3400 BC - 3000 BC time frame (in fanes7's own words from another thread "always within the first 18 turns"), and to regularly generate multiple leaders before 1000 BC is patently false on its face. The logistics of creating units, generating promotions, finding enemies, winning battles, and generating leaders, when laid against the template of the hard-coded odds of the various events (not least of which is the 1/16 of generating a leader) makes an occasional game with such leader generation a lucky game, and "regularly" generating such results a mathematical aberation of dramatic proportions. I thought fanes7 had been discredited in his first attempt at displaying his "superiority" when he appeared some weeks ago.

In any event, the only real way to put to the test fanes7's "system" is to not put the game into his hands directly -- play the game yourself, taking directions on what exactly to do in each turn from fanes7 (after providing any screenshots or other information fanes7 might want in order to make decisions). Such a test would be played as if you were playing a demo game and fanes7 controlled all the moves but didn't actually play the moves. Only with such an approach can you discount any reloading, playing multiple games, spoofing the code, etc. A boring and largish investment of time just to prove what on its face is a case of irregular play . . .

Catt

	20-09-2003 23:40									#69
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf dominae give him some time to prove his case (or not)

I think the case has been proven and it is that he reloads. We all figured that was the case form the get go anyway. Look at how he beelined for the Babs. This is probably because he played the map unil he found them and then reloaded noting the location.
I just do not see how you could be sure to win all the battles, let alone get the promotions, even if RNG was not preserved, it would be hard.
He says we can not judge him, but that is a canard. We are qualified to see what is in plain view.
If one was to come here and show this tactic with out reloads and say this often is efective, then I could agree.
It can be effective, but not full proof.
Sending warriors one at a time to attack a civ at deity from a long distance is not likely to work consistently.
This is what the AI does at all levels and fails. At deity Hammy will have a lot of units on hand and could have Bowmen. You will put him in GA and face even more units. Not to mention raging barbs and you have an undefended city. I am not that brave or foolish, there are better ways to beat the game.

	22-09-2003 01:20									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

This is interesting, I've been following this for a while now trying to stay objective. However the way all warriors were sent directly west, none north or south or anywhere else where the Babs could have been is highly dubious and even building a road west

I'm kinda disappointed, I thought there might actually be something new here. Theoretically I figure it may be plausable to get GL(s) very early. You send a warrior out which gets promoted on the way to another civ from barbs. On meeting another civ you declare war and get the full initial 12 free units thrown at you. For arguments sake say you foritfy on a hill and the civ you find is neither scientific or millitaristic and that all 12 units attack you on consecutive turns allowing you to heal each time so you always have a min of 2 HP for each fight. Then it is possible, if unlikely, to win all 12 battles. After the first 4 your warrior is likely to be elite, giving 8 chances to get a GL. At 16 to 1 each time it's 50 - 50.

Of course the above scenario is not going to happen, although perhaps in 1.14 the AI may throw away units attacking you while fortified on a hill?

I had a few goes at using the free AI units to get early GL's
I played tiny pangea maps as the chinese, against the English, Franch and Carthage. Building a barracks then warriors, declaring war on all AI I met straight away so that I got 36 untis coming at me. Due to inferior AI tactics and superior vet to reg units I was able to win alot of battles and created a GL in around 2700 bc although it was only my 3rd elite victory . I lost quickly, however in the second try I created 2 GL's by 2000 bc although again I think this was more down to luck than anything else. The next 6 times I tried it I was unable to get any GL's at all by 1500 bc despite numerous Elite wins. This is kinda interesting and I think it may be worth looking into though as my own millitary tactics leave alot to be desired so perhaps someone better may be able to get more elite wins.

	22-09-2003 01:51									#71
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Actually going west would have been a smart move from the start. If you look at the map position you are more or less in the south east, with ocean to your right. There are three ways to go, N, S, W, and both N and S have odds that the ocean will start jutting in. So the most logical path would be west.

However, the warrior path is just too straight, too "beelined" to be believable. Most people don't send their initial scounting warrior on a straight line but zig-zaging across hills and mountains.

	22-09-2003 02:36									#72
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Even if you did go straight and I mite, you will not send then next one the exact same path, you will want to see more of the map.
OPD, I don't think there is all that much in the way of tactics in a straight warrior to warrior combat, other that trying to get def bonus (terrain/fort). Say you get forted in an open tile and they attack, they can still win.

	22-09-2003 04:51									#73
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Well, where is the leader and the great strategy?

	22-09-2003 05:22									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Sheik Well, where is the leader and the great strategy?

please, please, please .... download MasterZen 's savefile , and have a try , step by step as I post before , You will see your miracle ...

;-) , :-0


I haven't downloaded the latest PtW upgrade file , because it was too large. I visit website through our company's proxy server , the server only open the port 80, so I can't use some tools like JetCar(FlashGet) to download, I always lose-link when I download file. Maybe some website is too slowly. I want a upgrade file verymuch , the file is about 10M , could somebody upload on this site , so I can download and we can play in same version ?

	22-09-2003 05:24									#75
	You know what's funny about fanes7's screenshots? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They almost exactly match what my screens looked like when I *tried* to cheat.

I asked myself: "What would I do if I were to cheat?"

I explored in all directions until I made contact...then I reloaded from 4000BC and beelined towards the contact point. Exactly what fanes7 did.

vmxa1 and MZ are correct. Normally you explore all around or zig-zag along mountains or hills. Not when you cheat.

What's also funny is that I came *this* close to getting a leader. After about a zillion reloads, I had three Elite Warriors surrounded by about 5 Bab Warriors. I figured it would just be a matter of reloading to eventually get a GL.

But, alas...I was not patient enough. I bet fanes7 is reloading as we speak.

Later.

- TT

	22-09-2003 05:28									#76
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Even if you did go straight and I mite, you will not send then next one the exact same path, you will want to see more of the map. OPD, I don't think there is all that much in the way of tactics in a straight warrior to warrior combat, other that trying to get def bonus (terrain/fort). Say you get forted in an open tile and they attack, they can still win.

In a huge map , you wouldn't explore , because technology is fast researched , you can soon use MapMaking to trade map with your opponent .

You wouldn't need to find other civs, they will find you . ;-)

If you win in war , you can get map , that's not a matter
.

	22-09-2003 05:38									#77
	Re: You know what's funny about fanes7's screenshots? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck They almost exactly match what my screens looked like when I *tried* to cheat. I asked myself: "What would I do if I were to cheat?" I explored in all directions until I made contact...then I reloaded from 4000BC and beelined towards the contact point. Exactly what fanes7 did. vmxa1 and MZ are correct. Normally you explore all around or zig-zag along mountains or hills. Not when you cheat. What's also funny is that I came *this* close to getting a leader. After about a zillion reloads, I had three Elite Warriors surrounded by about 5 Bab Warriors. I figured it would just be a matter of reloading to eventually get a GL. But, alas...I was not patient enough. I bet fanes7 is reloading as we speak. Later. - TT

I am not as stupid as you said, :-)

In a peace world , the AI develop very fast , especially in a deity huge map, but the AI can't deal with the war time very well , so that 's the AI 's weakness-point .

All we do in the game is : alway make AI in turbulence . So that's why we should declare war with some civ at first meet.

	22-09-2003 05:58									#78
	Tired of ads?

fanes don't play stupid. In Diety the AI get's extra units at the start.

	22-09-2003 07:21									#79
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master fanes don't play stupid. In Diety the AI get's extra units at the start.

Yes, but the AI doesn't get any combat advantages at Deity. The extra AI units are actually *helpful* because they yield more possibilities to try out when the game is reloaded.

In essense, the "possibility tree" has way more branches under Deity. Therefore, it is more likely that a single branch will generate a GL. A reloader *wants* the AI to have more units.

- TT

	22-09-2003 07:53									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here's the thing, this game has the RNG fixed. You can't just reload and get the results you want. Something else must be triggering the change in RNG that generates leaders so often.

And no offense fanes7, but your strategy seems hardly that which most knowledgable people on Deity would use. You're saying NOT to explore? That's crazy, the AI trades techs so quickly that you are best to find one or two AI's which still lack a tech you do have and so you can trade it before they can trade them between themselves.

And if you wait researching until Map Making in Deity, the AI will by that time probably have Feudalism.

	22-09-2003 09:01									#81
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen And no offense fanes7, but your strategy seems hardly that which most knowledgable people on Deity would use. You're saying NOT to explore? That's crazy, the AI trades techs so quickly that you are best to find one or two AI's which still lack a tech you do have and so you can trade it before they can trade them between themselves. And if you wait researching until Map Making in Deity, the AI will by that time probably have Feudalism.

R U kidding ? I never research any tech before I build University in my some most big cities.

All thing I want (Tech, Map, Worker, Gold, City ...) is from peace treat .


At beginning of the game , I found my settle is at the SouthEast corner of the bigmap , so Going West is the only way I can find other civs.


I see still only me download your savefile, So I 'm very disappointed or even despairing.


Make sure you download Master Zen 's Savefile and do step by step as I post before , after this , you can post at here , ok ? Please , please, please ...

	22-09-2003 09:11									#82
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master fanes don't play stupid. In Diety the AI get's extra units at the start.

That is the point .

There is a time distinction , maybe I can say as that.

Often you declare war at AI 's field, and AI 's field is far away your own field.

So , when AI 's units come to your field after 10 or more turns, you can have the preponderant unit because you still build units.

And in new version, the AI unit will hardly attack a full HitPoint elite . So you can use full HP elite postpone the AI arrive .

	22-09-2003 09:15									#83
	Re: You know what's funny about fanes7's screenshots? Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by ToeTruck What's also funny is that I came *this* close to getting a leader. After about a zillion reloads, I had three Elite Warriors surrounded by about 5 Bab Warriors. I figured it would just be a matter of reloading to eventually get a GL. But, alas...I was not patient enough. I bet fanes7 is reloading as we speak. Later. - TT

I am not sure if I read this correctly, but you cannot get a leader form barbs. He is using them to get vets and elites.

	22-09-2003 09:19									#84
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by fanes7 In a huge map , you wouldn't explore , because technology is fast researched , you can soon use MapMaking to trade map with your opponent . You wouldn't need to find other civs, they will find you . ;-) If you win in war , you can get map , that's not a matter .

I do not even follow this part. Your get a reduction in research cost by knowing other civs that have learned a given tech. This and trading are reasons to make contact even in a huge map. You may also wish to have an idea of the land for expansion. You may or may not wish to trade maps. I may want theirs, but not them to have mine.

	22-09-2003 09:19									#85
	Inflate your Upload Space

And another thing I want to clarify ,

I didn't play MasterZen 's savefile seriously , all I want is create a GL before 3150BC , so I didn't do much exploring thing. This thread is because I bet on 3150BC 's GL with vmxa1 .

I sincerely invite vmxa1 download MasterZen 's savefile and do step by step as I post before . And tell a word here if I create a GL before 3150BC ?

	22-09-2003 09:33									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by fanes7 R U kidding ? I never research any tech before I build University in my some most big cities. All thing I want (Tech, Map, Worker, Gold, City ...) is from peace treat . At beginning of the game , I found my settle is at the SouthEast corner of the bigmap , so Going West is the only way I can find other civs. I see still only me download your savefile, So I 'm very disappointed or even despairing. Make sure you download Master Zen 's Savefile and do step by step as I post before , after this , you can post at here , ok ? Please , please, please ...

I am not having a problem with the idea of going west. I am having a problem with it being a beeline and all the others going the same path.This suggest the map was played to see where to go and then reloaded to make a straight line on the next run through.
If you are going to use a very specialized style, then not researching is possible, but waiting until after getting tech to build universities is unusal.
The reason people are not down loading the file is it fairly plain to see that it is reloading for a strategy.
Why should we bother? I have no doubt some leaders could be made with this technique, but I am not going to sit around reloading.
I just do not see why you persist in acting as if you are not, is just for the attention? Surely you can see that no one is going for it.

	22-09-2003 09:45									#87
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by fanes7 Often you declare war at AI 's field, and AI 's field is far away your own field. So , when AI 's units come to your field after 10 or more turns, you can have the preponderant unit because you still build units. And in new version, the AI unit will hardly attack a full HitPoint elite . So you can use full HP elite postpone the AI arrive .

The thing is we can not just declare a war on any AI as soon as we met it at Deity. We could lose and be eliminated. Yes we may be able to take advantage of the AI lack of planning attacks, but we may get overrun.
This because we will not be reloading the game to get it right, so we have to be a bit more circumspect. A civ with 12 extra troops to start and an extra settler, is not to be taking lightly if you can not just reload.
If you think not play AU208 at just emperor and stick to its rules. No peace ever and no reloads, lets see how you fare then.

	22-09-2003 09:52									#88
	Support Apolyton

In words,
I hear echoes of Sun Tzu.
In echoes of action,
I hear false spring.

	22-09-2003 10:04									#89
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

* Master Zen just remembers he hasn't finished AU208...

	22-09-2003 10:32									#90
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Just for the record, I just tried to run this game and at the 3400 or where ever it was the you pop the hut, I got no barbs. It was deserted. This was 1.27F, but I doubt it matters. I had the warriors and worker in the same spots, so it should as been the same?