25-09-2003 17:12									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I’m getting increasingly convinced we ARE watching different teams!

You obviously watch the ABs through a pair of pint glasses, complete with that gluggy Bitter sediment pasted on the bottom. Here is a quote from Planet Rugby:

quote: The athletic lock, [Williams], competed favourably against his more experienced rivals on the tour to Europe last year, earning the admiration of England skipper Martin Johnson who presented the young Aucklander with his Test jersey after the Test at Twickenham.

Stick that in your pork pie and smoke it!

[edit: name change]

	25-09-2003 18:44									#122
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Fine. Except we were talking about Ali Williams the Lock were we not ? And Johnson nearly always gives his Jersey to one of the opposing locks - it means absolute diddly squat except that Williams asked first. This is nicely re-inforced by the lack of a supporting "Williams is great" quote I think

It illustrates nicely that Professional writers can spin what they want out of unrelated facts.

There is an infamous occassion (after last Lions test in 2001) where Jonno refused the Planks request for his Jersey. Why? Because he had already promised it to the tree hugger (whose last game that was)! Finbar might remember this as the Sydney Morning Herald went all guns blazing for Jonno over it - even going so far as to quote a tearful mother of the plank saying what an evil man Jonno was.

My point, and yes there is one, is that I don't necessarily trust what any sports writer says. My own intelligence tells me this PR writer was stretching his creative thinking considerably.

Edit: For my opening paragraph to make sense please note andydog originally named a young hooker. Further note that Jonno does not normally go around praising young hookers.

Last edited by Havak on 25-09-2003 at 19:00

	25-09-2003 19:17									#123
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Yeah I meant to type Williams, had to rush that post, this friggen project has me running off my feet.

Anyhow, it sounds like you're speculating a lot there. You don't know if Williams asked first, and it's hardly surprising that Johno often gives his jeary away to his opposite number, I would expect that to be the norm.

Just remember we came within three of beating you matey, at full strength. Williams was one of the new youngsters on the scene and had a great series. He has a lot of tallent, and has been improving steadily since then. And that my friend is no fantasy.

	25-09-2003 19:46									#124
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I know whats it like to be busy at work.

You came within three of beating us all right - in your home patch and with us missing several current first choice players (Flatman and Vickery were missing injured, Corry and Dawson are now seemingly first choices, Robbo is back at fullback whereas Lewsey was then.). Could I be a sports writer maybe?

I'm not actually speculating by the way - J gives his shirt to the player who asks him first usually. I still need a quote relating to Williams to buy that J rates him. I know he rates Jack - because I've actually heard him say that you see.

For your own part you are dealing in non quantifiable measures - 'talent' and 'improvement' - but you are not giving the base measure for either. For all I know the improvement could have been from 'dire' to 'poor'?

Anyway you clearly rate him and I'm not really interested in doing the lad down any futher given he does look set to miss the WRC. I wanted Lewsey to get chance to say 'hello' to him again.

	25-09-2003 19:54									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Havak ...Jonno refused the Planks request...

The Planks?

Who does that refer to? Does it mean "thick as a plank"?

	25-09-2003 20:39									#126
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The meaning is correct It was applied to a specific Australian supposedly by a specific Englishman (but actually by his welsh ghost writer).

The Australian was the out of favour Justin Harrison, the Englishman Austin Healey and the welshman Eddie Butler.

Finbars spleen may be ready to vent as I write...

	25-09-2003 21:07									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The meaning is correct It was applied to a specific Australian supposedly by a specific Englishman (but actually by his welsh ghost writer). The Australian was the out of favour Justin Harrison, the Englishman Austin Healey and the welshman Eddie Butler. Finbars spleen may be ready to vent as I write...

So is it now used to refer to Australians in general? "Planks" ...I like it.

	26-09-2003 04:42									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Finbars spleen may be ready to vent as I write...

Not at all. Suffice to say that the Plank made his country's WRC squad, while V.D. didn't. By V.D., of course, I mean Verbal Diarrhoea rather than the well known Social Disease. Though given the very public evidence of his complete and utter lack of judgement, the Social Disease obviously isn't beyond the realms either.

That aside, there was a bizarre little story in this morning's press. Rob Howley, Welshman, halfback on the last Lions tour, retired from international rugby after the 6 Nations. Now he fancies an international comeback with the Lions -v- the ABs in 2005. Yet representing Wales in the WRC held no interest. Obviously a dreamer.

	26-09-2003 04:44									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Could I be a sports writer maybe?

No. You verge on literate.

	26-09-2003 13:56									#130
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quote: So is it now used to refer to Australians in general? "Planks"

Only the large aggressive ones.

quote: Not at all. Suffice to say that the Plank made his country's WRC squad, while V.D. didn't.

And bizarrely again there is more chance of V.D making an impact on the RWC than there is of Justin so doing. Austin will end up out there – I’m sure of it. We are bound to lose players to the Boks – whose coach and team manager will no doubt then accuse lads with broken necks of being ‘sissies’?

quote: Yet representing Wales in the WRC held no interest. Obviously a dreamer.

It’s a little more complicated than it seems on face value – and not beyond the realms.

He used to be welsh captain. He was stripped of this in fairly humiliating fashion by the tweedle dee/tweedle dum regime at Wales and then criticised publicly for loss of form. Both are evil things for a coach to do to a player – and clearly I would suggest these are behind his lack of ambition to be seen in a welsh shirt. Tweedle dee is long gone and little missed but tweedle dum still have the helm. Until he gets sacked (post RWC?) Howley would be unlikely to consider a welsh return.

But he is only 32 – was instrumental in Wasps championship drive last season and is playing as well as he ever has (and he is talented – another boy who was wasted in Wales). In 2001 he definitely edged the English boys at scrummy – he may still do so (I’d like to see them face off in a direct comparison before being sure). It’s possible you know…

quote: No. You verge on literate.

Only verge?

	26-09-2003 14:47									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Austin will end up out there – I’m sure of it.

I've circulated his photo to the various entry points into the country.

quote: I would suggest these are behind his lack of ambition to be seen in a welsh shirt. Tweedle dee is long gone and little missed but tweedle dum still have the helm. Until he gets sacked (post RWC?) Howley would be unlikely to consider a welsh return.

Mmmm. Well, some rise above these things and get on with it, some don't.

quote: Only verge?

I might be more charitable after you don't win the WRC.

	26-09-2003 15:04									#132
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On which note I would really like Tamerlin to explain this outreageous lack of NH solidarity

Apparently we are only going there to 'enjoy ourselves' according to Woodward anyway. The things coaches say these days - is he fooling anyone?

	26-09-2003 16:03									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Havak You came within three of beating us all right - in your home patch and with us missing several current first choice players (Flatman and Vickery were missing injured, Corry and Dawson are now seemingly first choices, Robbo is back at fullback whereas Lewsey was then.). Could I be a sports writer maybe?

Okay, I'll take a nibble. That June game in Wellington 15-13 to England was rubbish. Dickinson refereed appallingly, dishing out 33 penalties and effectively robbed the game of any flow whatsoever. We got the only try, with a new team starting at the beginning of our season, when you were at the end of yours. Our No 8 So'oialo was ruled to have made a double movement after taking a quick tap near the try line, another bollocks call that robbed us of another try.

England won because they showed the value firstly of experience, but also of goal kicking. Wilko kicked four from five, plus a drop goal, for all of his side's 15 points, Carlos Spencer struggled in the swirling conditions, landing just three from seven.

England showed enormous character, but in terms of playing actual rugby and putting together phases and implementing patterns, neither side was able to get past the first phase as Dickinson whistled the house down.

Nobody could walk away from that game and proclaim who was the better side.

Yuck, this bait tastes of pork, I think I'll spit it out now.

	26-09-2003 16:33									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On which note I would really like Tamerlin to explain this outreageous lack of NH solidarity

*hums La Marseillaise*

	26-09-2003 16:34									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Nobody could walk away from that game and proclaim who was the better side.

Havak, England must grind the AB to dust in Final.

	26-09-2003 16:35									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog Okay, I'll take a nibble. That June game in Wellington 15-13 to England was rubbish. Dickinson refereed appallingly, dishing out 33 penalties and effectively robbed the game of any flow whatsoever. We got the only try, with a new team starting at the beginning of our season, when you were at the end of yours. Our No 8 So'oialo was ruled to have made a double movement after taking a quick tap near the try line, another bollocks call that robbed us of another try. England won because they showed the value firstly of experience, but also of goal kicking. Wilko kicked four from five, plus a drop goal, for all of his side's 15 points, Carlos Spencer struggled in the swirling conditions, landing just three from seven. England showed enormous character, but in terms of playing actual rugby and putting together phases and implementing patterns, neither side was able to get past the first phase as Dickinson whistled the house down. Nobody could walk away from that game and proclaim who was the better side. Yuck, this bait tastes of pork, I think I'll spit it out now.

Now this guy could be a sports writer!

	26-09-2003 16:46									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Havak On which note I would really like Tamerlin to explain this outreageous lack of NH solidarity

First: Philippe Sella was a great player but his IQ is close to infamous David Campese's one (where one is at the same time relating to the IQ and to the result of the test).

Second: He has played all his French carreer at Agen

Third: He is now working for a French private television channel where he comments games.

Do you still think is opinion is important?

	26-09-2003 16:54									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin First: Philippe Sella was a great player but his IQ is close to infamous David Campese's one (where one is at the same time relating to the IQ and to the result of the test). Second: He has played all his French carreer at Agen Third: He is now working for a French private television channel where he comments games. Do you still think is opinion is important?

Any opinion that gives Havak the irrits is an important opinion.

	26-09-2003 16:57									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Havak, England must grind the AB to dust in Final.

OTOH, this guy is une oie.

	26-09-2003 17:12									#140
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quote: Originally posted by finbar OTOH, this guy is une oie.

Your Political Refugee status has just been revised by the Board of Inquiry.

	26-09-2003 17:20									#141
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I never did rate his opinion in this piece Tamerlin.

You may be right Finbar. Let me see if I can spice up the bait.

Dickinson had a poor game. It WAS a poor game all round. I think it would be fair to say the more experienced side ground a result out of a forgettable game. But Dickinson did catch and stop a lot of traditional AB infringements (double moves should count when you wear black?) so I can understand why Kiwis would be unhappy. The only try was scored from a traditional Howlett metres offside move that is becoming tiresome from such an obviously talented player – and THAT was the refs worst call of the game. The double movement was exactly that – but any player would have played innocent the way your guilty player did and that’s a sad indication of where the SH influence on the game has taken us IMO. Personally I was always brutally honest - "Of course I scored sir".

Sure we showed great character, particularly when down to 13 men and the ABs showed some flashes of brilliance – had Howletts try been legal I would have applauded it loudly as it actually showed good vision. It has to be frustrating that such a highly rated side couldn’t make a two man advantage tell?

But there is perhaps one thing to take issue with – the winner can always walk away and claim to be the better side surely? When the loser does it – as some Kiwis (not yourself of course!) are still maintaining even now – doesn’t it make them look pretty, um, daft? Look at it this way – had the ABs won would the fans be coming out of it not claiming to be the best. Of course not – they would be shoving it down everyone’s throat all the time. You are lucky I’m a fairly restrained Englishman instead.

Damn that hook hurts the mouth…

Anyway all this A better than B is not important – the acid test is near upon us. And I still would not be surprised at all if one or the other of us gets knocked out by someone else. Looking at the draw we are in separate halves and if we do win our group the first real challenge we should face is France in the semi…without wanting to upset Tamerlin I hope we find them in the frame of mind they were in at HQ earlier in the month. I think you meet the Boks in the Qf if all goes to (my) plan. In an all or nothing game can they hold off on the biff? Can the ABs handle the biff? Fascinating questions.

	26-09-2003 18:04									#142
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Lest we forget which hemisphere led in the blind rush to Professionalism in Rugby Union check this out

Poor old George. Such restraint of trade on a player would almost certainly be illegal in the EC.

	26-09-2003 18:39									#143
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You think it was double movement, well I don't think it was. You think our try was scored from an offside position, and again, I don't think it was. Nor do I think it's fair to suggest that the Kiwis are traditional infringers, nor to suggest that Kiwis are always shoving our victories down everyone's throats. Every country is guilty of that.

But all that aside, I'm sorry but your claim that the better side always wins is absolute bollocks. There is a concept called luck, and luck plays a big factor in rugby, and sometimes luck goes against those who play better, and sometimes it results in the better side loosing. I'm not suggesting this was the case in that game, just making the point.

Back to that particular game however, consider this. It was a typical season opener by the All Blacks. There was a lack of cohesion in the partnerships of the new combinations. We also lacked composure at times and rhythm and our attack got a bit fragmented. However, we did show an improved lineout and a solid forward effort to earn more than enough ball to attack England. It was our young backline failed to fire on that evening, and look how far they've come since then.

I think you underrate our forwards. Australia may have an average forward pack, but that last Tri Nations Bledisloe clash had them playing their hearts out against us, and we still dominated and displayed some great phases of forward play.

The way I work it out, we are likely to face Australia in the semi and you either France or the Boks. I pray we see each other in the final so we can see how our forwards fair against yours, and which style will triumph.



but not really that

	26-09-2003 19:03									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Lest we forget which hemisphere led in the blind rush to Professionalism in Rugby Union check this out

Sorry mate, your link doesn't work.

	26-09-2003 19:10									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Sorry mate, your link doesn't work.

If it's what I think it is, it's about George Gregan being stopped from playing for the Brumbies if he's not available for the Wallabies. Try this link:

http://www.planet-rugby.com/LATEST_...ory_31049.shtml

The restraint of trade notion is interesting. George would have been aware of the arrangement when he signed his contracts. It will be interesting to see what happens.

	26-09-2003 19:13									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Your Political Refugee status has just been revised by the Board of Inquiry.

I just appealed to the European Court and won!

	26-09-2003 19:15									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Andydog But all that aside, I'm sorry but your claim that the better side always wins is absolute bollocks. There is a concept called luck, and luck plays a big factor in rugby, and sometimes luck goes against those who play better, and sometimes it results in the better side loosing. I'm not suggesting this was the case in that game, just making the point.

True.

quote: I think you underrate our forwards. Australia may have an average forward pack, but that last Tri Nations Bledisloe clash had them playing their hearts out against us, and we still dominated and displayed some great phases of forward play.

Not so true.

	26-09-2003 19:19									#148
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quote: Originally posted by finbar The restraint of trade notion is interesting. George would have been aware of the arrangement when he signed his contracts. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Interesting...although it obviously is, I hadn't thought of the Super 12 as being so international. Though he isn't playing for the national team, the games are still (mostly) international.

I suspect ole Georgie will be forced to play by the rules. Fair enough too - he is free to choose whether he wants to accept the terms of the contract or not.

	26-09-2003 19:53									#149
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Well apologies for the busted link.

quote: But all that aside, I'm sorry but your claim that the better side always wins is absolute bollocks.

Not guilty!!! I said no such thing!! I said the winner has a ‘better’ claim to being the ‘better’ side than the loser. If I phrased it ambiguously just call me an arse!

How can the better side always win – we have lost to both the Abs and Australia in the past and that surely proves your point?

And as for the foray into the realms of luck – well yes sure all sport has it as a factor. Rugby has less than a lot of sports though – skill really does tell most of the time.

quote: However, we did show an improved lineout and a solid forward effort to earn more than enough ball to attack England.

Your ‘season opener’ was also our first game post season, with a changed line up, against a damn good side on their own patch. I have consistently tried to ***** this bubble in the thread that our forwards played anything other than badly in that game. They are hugely unlikely to play so badly against you again. Your chances of getting so much ball are highly questionable to me.

quote: It was our young backline failed to fire on that evening, and look how far they've come since then.

Five games. A destruction of Wales, two superb runs away from home in the tri-nations and two frankly not that hot games at home? Mixed messages in a way – very English of you if you will forgive me for saying it. How far have they come – I find it hard to measure until you face us again to be honest.

You are clearly a very very good and promising side – England are a very good side too. We can beat you. I’m aware you can beat us too.

quote: and we still dominated and displayed some great phases of forward play.

Dominated in the loose? Or overall? Hmm I watched that last game and I felt a known to be weak Aussie front row gave real problems to your boys. I’d like wider opinions I think.

I don’t under rate your pack – I don’t rate it as good as ours either. My opinion that - and if you like to see it as my problem then fine by me.

quote: so we can see how our forwards fair against yours, and which style will triumph.

I’m just as keen to see that as you – and I think you really need to be prepared that it may be you not I that gets hugely surprised.

I’m not at all by the way.

I accept that as sole Englishman I’m going to draw ire by gobbing off from my corner – do keep it coming.

	26-09-2003 20:09									#150
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Not so true.

You don't think so? Mealamu, head down, legs pumping, regularly made strong yards for good set-ups; Chris Jack was an imposing presence as was McCaw. I thought the Wallaby forwards played much better following the 50-21 hiding the few weeks before. If I remember it was Gregan's erratic options and the lack of cohesion in your backline that let you down. Overall it wasn't a stunning performance by NZ, and we still have deficiencies in our pack I admit, but I still think they can give England a few surprises.