20-09-2003 01:36									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld ...I wouldn't call my kids losers if they droped out ...

Except that they are.

	20-09-2003 01:38									#182
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I never claimed watching advertising in school is education. (but I will admit, when I was taking advertising in college, it was) So I agree with you.

However... I don't see it as selling the minds of our children... or vodoo mind control either. It's something they see hundreds and hundreds of times a day... An extra one or two in return for them having access to better learning tools seems like a fair exchange to me...

	20-09-2003 01:44									#183
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I sure hope so (and believe it) that Europeans will never accept such a devious act as forcing kids to watch ads in the school.

If you as a parent accept it (and apparently most of american parents), what can I say more?

	20-09-2003 01:49									#184
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quote: Originally posted by rah Your only point seems to be that if kids want to drop out, let them. Do nothing to encourage them to continue to graduate.

I didn't say that, what I said is that it is their choice to make, and that they shouldn't be thrown in jail for taking charge of their own life.

I also said that the reaction from the school to a student skipping class should be to make sure they understand the effects that their actions can have. I would of course expect the parents to discuss it with their kid aswell, but whatever goes on between kids and parents is their own buisness.

quote: The facts of life are very simple. Those that get an education do better in their lives. The more education you get, the better you usually do. And I don't mean just monetary... I mean in being the type of person you want to be.

First of all, droping out is all about being the person you want to be.

But anyways, education is something that is always available. If you drop out, you can go back to school any time you want or go through alternative methods to get a diploma. Or you can read books and educate yourself, if a dimploma is not important to you. (even then, you could probably just take a few tests and get one)

Elementary school is important - you learn all the basics you need to get by, writing, reading, basic math, ect... High school on the other hand is mostly just an introduction to beurocracy, semantics, social castes, and specialised areas of education. So I missed out on advanced calculus and the periodic table... eh, so what? The only time I've ever seen people make use of that knowledge (outside of specialised careers) is to help other people with their homework. Highschool, to me, is nothing but an overly stressful envionment and mostly a complete waste of time. If I wanted to learn the periodic table, I am completely capable of picking up a book and learning it on my own.

	20-09-2003 01:49									#185
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The entire 100% of the time spent in school is not dedicated to education. Some of it is "SOCIAL".

While I'm not thrilled to see ads in class, maybe it gives the teacher a chance to talk about their value and place in society.

And just because a child doesn't want to watch ads in class, it doesn't give them the right to just get up and walk out. There were a few thing in school that I had no desire to hear, but I just tuned it out instead of disrespecting my teacher and fellow students.

	20-09-2003 01:56									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius I sure hope so (and believe it) that Europeans will never accept such a devious act as forcing kids to watch ads in the school.

And that is another misconception... they aren't "forced" to watch the commercials. They aren't tested on them or anything silly like that. People are making it sound like the kids eyes are being glued open, and that a teacher is holding a gun to their head to watch.

We are all well skilled at blocking out commercial messages... When you ask people how many ads they saw yesterday... they can sometimes come up with some... and don't even realize just how many were actually viaing for their attention, and they ignored. Most people don't even notice most of the ads available to them as they walk down a street... from the simple business signs over stores... the ads in the windows... the bill boards... bus cards... taxi ads... logos on people's clothes... hundreds upon hundreds a day... and most are tuned out or not even noticed.

This mind control stuff is just crap... people tune most of them out or ignore them... If it is mind control, we must be doing something very wrong if it's so easy to ignore them

	20-09-2003 02:05									#187
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Yeah, Os, I have to agree, most of the stuff you learn in high school is not necessary to flip burgers.

When a child is old enough to make there own educated decision, they should be allowed. I don't think 14 is old enough and they should be encouraged to do the right thing. And staying in school to complete HS is the right thing most of the time.

	20-09-2003 02:07									#188
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quote: Yeah, Os, I have to agree, most of the stuff you learn in high school is not necessary to flip burgers.

	20-09-2003 02:11									#189
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quote: Originally posted by rah Yeah, Os, I have to agree, most of the stuff you learn in high school is not necessary to flip burgers.

High school teaches you all about social castes, that can be quite important in a job where most people look down apon you. A job where you really don't need anything you learn in highschool would be one of those cosy office jobs where you sit on your ass shuffling papers around and making phone calls all day.

	20-09-2003 02:16									#190
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Hmmm, I program and do statistical analysis for a living along with directing a large staff of application developers. I rely heavily on all the math and statisitcs classes that I had in school and all the programming classes that I had in college. The political science and psych classes were also quite usefull in managing people. So on the whole, I could not do my job without all the schooling I had.

	20-09-2003 02:17									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld High school teaches you all about social castes, that can be quite important in a job where most people look down apon you. A job where you really don't need anything you learn in highschool would be one of those cosy office jobs where you sit on your ass shuffling papers around and making phone calls all day.

You need a lot of education and experience to write the right thing on those papers and say the right things in that phone. Not just: Hey dude, guess what I saw on TV last nite...

	20-09-2003 02:18									#192
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That's funny actually, all the programmers I've ever met where high school drop outs.

	20-09-2003 02:20									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld That's funny actually, all the programmers I've ever met where high school drop outs.

But their boss did not drop out

	20-09-2003 02:23									#194
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Are you trying to make a point Ollie? Did it every occur to you that I don't want to work in an office? I thought the joke about it would be a bit of a give away.

	20-09-2003 02:24									#195
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They're just plain crappy programmers. I won't hire a programmer without a HS degree. Those without degrees usually lack the imagination, creativety and discipline to properly contribute over the long haul. I couldn't have advanced to being an officer of the company without a degree. SO laugh all you want. When you attain that level of success, let me know.

I won't hold it against you if your goals are not set as high since it's more important to you to be who you are and I can respect that.

	20-09-2003 02:26									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld ... don't want to work in an office?...

You are free to flip your burgers or operate the elevator. But don't expect me to give you tip.

	20-09-2003 02:28									#197
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quote: Originally posted by rah They're just plain crappy programmers. I won't hire a programmer without a HS degree. Those without degrees usually lack the imagination, creativety and discipline to properly contribute over the long haul. I couldn't have advanced to being an officer of the company without a degree. SO laugh all you want. When you attain that level of success, let me know I won't hold it against you if your goals are not set as high since it's more important to you to be who you are and I can respect that.

Oh yes, high goals. Excuse lowly little me that I don't want to be a buisness executive and live in a mansion, that I can be content with life itself and not obsess over materialism.

	20-09-2003 02:32									#198
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A mansion, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH obseesed over materialism. hahahahhahahahaha
I live in a very modest house. My goal is to get my daughter through school so I can retire and play golf.
Actually quite a low goal you see, but that's who I am.

	20-09-2003 02:32									#199
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It's tough to be content with your life if you are starving... or your children are

	20-09-2003 02:36									#200
	Suffering from ads?

I live in a mansion. But that's only because it's in a low-rate rural area. I would never be able to afford a similar house in a city suburb.

	20-09-2003 02:36									#201
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So, OS, what are your goals?

	20-09-2003 02:58									#202
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my goal is to be a bum and live off of my SO

durring the day I will do physics and read books and play games

my first problem is that I don't have an SO right now, much less a wealthy one

Jon Miller

	20-09-2003 03:03									#203
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quote: Originally posted by rah So, OS, what are your goals?

To enjoy life.


Jon's got a good plan, too.

	20-09-2003 04:06									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Ming There is a reason why they made it a law in the first place...

There's always a reason for making a law, there was a reason for Idi Amin's law's, Stalin's laws, and Hitler's laws.

	20-09-2003 04:17									#205
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That's right... if you can't win an argument with facts, just mention Hitller and the rest... good logic...

	20-09-2003 04:34									#206
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There's a reason for Ming's law too...

	20-09-2003 04:55									#207
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The fact is that advertising is largely a form of pollution. Brand based advertising exists because there really isn't that much difference between quality products, so they have to invent some BS story or image to make you think they are different from all the other shoemakers or carmakers.

Who pays for advertisements? You do, in the money that is tacked on to the price of something you buy in order to pay Ming and Co. For the infinite pleasure of doing that you find that you cannot move through our society without being assaulted by moronic, and occasionally pornographic, images.

While there is need of some way to inform people about new and interesting products, in many cases advertising takes advantage of people's irrationality - they'd rather suffer advertisements and pay for them, than pay taxes.

The problem with schools is that they are underfunded. The public is too lazy and tightfisted to provide adequate resources, so the schools have to force children to watch advertisements instead of learning.

	20-09-2003 05:00									#208
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I've gotten more complaints that your posts are a form of pollution... and after reading through your latest...

I would have to agree

	20-09-2003 05:08									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I've gotten more complaints that your posts are a form of pollution... and after reading through your latest... I would have to agree

Big deal.

As if I care when you have to resort to that instead of addressing the point.

	20-09-2003 05:10									#210
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There is no need to address you post when all you do is rant silliness, Come up with something close to being meaningful, and I'll take the time to respond.