19-09-2003 20:28									#121
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That wasn't a troll. I am actually very in favour of uniforms. At primary school there was no uniform, I got bullied for having **** clothes (my parents' fault but there you go) Secondary School it was all uniform so it wasn't a problem.

	19-09-2003 20:30									#122
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pretty much every school over here has a uniform. still there are advantages for the schoolkid, girls are made to wear (fairly) short skirts, i certainly enjoyed the view when i was at school.

	19-09-2003 20:33									#123
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I am still highly sexually traumatised by having been surrounded by uniformed school girls for so many years without being able to **** any of them. *sigh*

	19-09-2003 20:33									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Or financial convenience. The worst ones we get are adverts that are obviously American ads that have English accents dubbed on them. I don't know anyone who doesn't find those intensely irritating. It's Ok for voice overs but not where you've got people trying to lip synch with the ad. They are starting to just show the US ads now though.

Yeah... I would agree... But you are right that it is a financial concern. What many people don't realize is that the average cost of nationally run 30 sec commercial in the US is now around a 800,000 dollars (remember, I said average and national... I don't want to hear how cheap some of the local commercials are... because they are cheap and usually bad) Think about that. If you were to produce a two hour film at that spending level, that would translate to $192 million dollars, which is far more than most movies. I personally think it's stupid to spend that kind of money, and then make cheap fixes to run the ads in a different country... but it does come down to budget. The more you spend making it, the less you can air it.

	19-09-2003 20:37									#125
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... I would agree... But you are right that it is a financial concern. What many people don't realize is that the average cost of nationally run 30 sec commercial in the US is now around a 800,000 dollars (remember, I said average and national... I don't want to hear how cheap some of the local commercials are... because they are cheap and usually bad) Think about that. If you were to produce a two hour film at that spending level, that would translate to $192 million dollars, which is far more than most movies. I personally think it's stupid to spend that kind of money, and then make cheap fixes to run the ads in a different country... but it does come down to budget. The more you spend making it, the less you can air it.

One thing I've wondered about before they say there's no such thing as bad publicity but is it possible that bad advertising can actually put people off buying your products? Which is something different to someone buying someone elses product because they have better adverts...

	19-09-2003 20:44									#126
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Back to your point about expense:

It's an interesting point. Music videos are quite an extreme form of television, they have to get their point across in a few minutes, and cost a huge amount per second. I guess advertisements are an even more extreme format because you've got even less time to get your point across.

	19-09-2003 20:46									#127
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I am still highly sexually traumatised by having been surrounded by uniformed school girls for so many years without being able to **** any of them. *sigh*

'and yet if i did it now, I would be the one to go to prison...'

	19-09-2003 20:55									#128
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH One thing I've wondered about before they say there's no such thing as bad publicity but is it possible that bad advertising can actually put people off buying your products? Which is something different to someone buying someone elses product because they have better adverts...

OH YEAH... there is nothing worse than pissing off your target audience... And some companies have done just that with their advertising. This is usually followed quickly by the Agency being fired... while the morons that actually had the final say and approved the campaign in the first place, hire a new agency

	19-09-2003 20:59									#129
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There was that thing with Tampax (I think) recently where they started running ads making fun of their previous "you can be a superwoman if you use these" ads and replacing them with a load of "who wants to go around roller blading everywhere? You can just feel comfortable wearing these whilst veging around the house eating cake" which are MUCH more suitable for the English market. Not sure I've really seen many ad campaigns visibly admit that their previous campaign was a bit rubbish with a parody of it.

	19-09-2003 22:17									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Ming No... I've never said they were the same thing. However... What you seem to be ignoring is that if you "want" something... it's the product that you want. Advertising may show you the product... but it's not what makes you want the product. The reason why you want it is your personal reason. An Ad may position the product in way that you want it so that you can see that it is something you want... but the "want" was already there.

No, I disagree. What you are saying is one scenario. Yes, sometimes it is like this how things happen. Other times Ads try to create a desire for something that people would normally not buy.

quote: Whether it's a need to own a bunch of fancy cars... or just a desire... it's no different than you wanting more than one pair of pants or women who need 1000 pair of shoes... Your point seems to be just an anti rich rant vs an argument that advertising makes them buy them.

It is not a rant against rich people. I just used your example with the cars. People buy a bunch of crap they don't really need, because of the Ads they see.

quote: That I will agree with... but in most cases... it's not the kids that are actually buying the products... it's their parents. I sure as hell don't buy my kids toys just because somebody else has it... or because they saw some commercial and decided they want it. A lot more goes into my buying decision...

Oh comm'on!
"Daddy I want a Nintendo, please, I want a Nintendo, please, please, please!"
Sure, you won't buy it.

quote: They already are exposed to commercials at school. Are you saying that kids shouldn't be allowed to wear clothes at school if they have a brand name on them. Are you saying that pop and vending machines shouldn't be allowed... that all brand names have to be removed from ALL items that come into a school.

It is not the same thing. Kids don't look ads on clothes or vending machines instead of learning.

quote: Their education is being enhanced by the equipment that schools get from Channel One... are you saying that they should be denied it simply because you don't like commericals

I actually like commercials (except those that I hate ) I also like marketing as a whole and I understand more about it that you might think. Not that this would be relevant here.

I'm just against using the power of advertising against kids. Money for schools shouldn't come from selling the kids' mind for equipments. The government could redirect some money used elsewhere (for unneccesarry wars for example) for schools, but I don't want to troll.

	19-09-2003 22:24									#131
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This is absolutely insane. They get jailed for not wanting to watch advertising in school? Nothing less than totalitarianism.

	19-09-2003 22:26									#132
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quote: I really love how some people equate advertising to mind control. How silly

Advertising is commercial indoctrination, and has absolutely no place in a public school. If it didn't work, so much money wouldn't be going into it, and kids wouldn't be jailed for refusing to watch it.

	19-09-2003 22:43									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius No, I disagree. What you are saying is one scenario. Yes, sometimes it is like this how things happen. Other times Ads try to create a desire for something that people would normally not buy.

Ads only work on the desires you already have... they can NOT make you buy something you don't want. If an ad "works" on you... it's because the desire was already there in the first place.

quote: People buy a bunch of crap they don't really need, because of the Ads they see.

People buy a lot of crap because they WANT TO... an ad doesn't MAKE THEM buy it. Get real. It's not the ad... it's the PRODUCT people want. An ad is just a nicer way for people to see the product. A person can see a nice car drive by and want it just as much, if not more.

quote: Oh comm'on! "Daddy I want a Nintendo, please, I want a Nintendo, please, please, please!" Sure, you won't buy it.

Maybe you are a play toy, a minion, or just a sucker when it comes to your kids, but I'm not... I judge every item I buy them solely on what I think about the product... not the advertising.

quote: It is not the same thing. Kids don't look ads on clothes or vending machines instead of learning.

If you don't think kids know the difference between ads and educational tv... you aren't giving kids any credit.
They do... so yes... ads on a tv is no different than a teacher wearing a nike shirt.

quote: I'm just against using the power of advertising against kids. Money for schools shouldn't come from selling the kids' mind for equipments. The government could redirect some money used elsewhere (for unneccesarry wars for example) for schools, but I don't want to troll.

This isn't about your warm and fuzzy idea of how schools "SHOULD" be funded... Wake up to reality... you are living in a dream world that doesn't exist. The facts are simple... the schools don't have the money to provide the kids the educational benifitts that come from having the equipment. They have to exist in the REAL world... and the experts have determinded that the kids gain more by having the equipment.

Would it be BETTER if the schools had ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD... (and not from your pocket)... and they could buy all the great things to improve the education process... sure... but this is the real world. And fortunately, it's not your decision to make... because you would deny the kids a better education.

They aren't selling childrens minds... (that's just a lame troll)

	19-09-2003 22:50									#134
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Ming is right, for once

Advertising doesn't really work on kids. You tell 'em "buy this it's cool" the next thing you know kids are saying that "it's" lame. "Drugs are bad" = "Drugs are good" in a kids mind... Rebellion is a youth factor.

	19-09-2003 22:55									#135
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quote: People buy a lot of crap because they WANT TO... an ad doesn't MAKE THEM buy it. Get real. It's not the ad... it's the PRODUCT people want. An ad is just a nicer way for people to see the product. A person can see a nice car drive by and want it just as much, if not more.

Look at the biotech industry. Half of the ads don't even mention what the drug is supposed to do ("ask your doctor if you need xxxx"). So these businesses' misplaced priorities drum up demand for obscenely expensive drugs by getting them more visibility, and people end up spending insane amounts of money on brand-name drugs instead of buying far less costly generics. A commercial culture is in opposition to people making informed choices.

	19-09-2003 22:58									#136
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Advertising doesn't work on kids.

	19-09-2003 23:01									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Look at the biotech industry. Half of the ads don't even mention what the drug is supposed to do ("ask your doctor if you need xxxx"). So these businesses' misplaced priorities drum up demand for obscenely expensive drugs by getting them more visibility, and people end up spending insane amounts of money on brand-name drugs instead of buying far less costly generics. A commercial culture is in opposition to people making informed choices.

Uhh... do you know why they don't mention what the drug is supposed to do.

Because once they do... they then by law have to list all the side effects. That's why they say talk to your doctor.
If the doctor wants to hide that there is a cheaper version of the drug... is that the fault of advertising?

A commerical culture is not in opposition to people making an informed choice... it's just another source of information. Or are you opposed to free speech?

	19-09-2003 23:07									#138
	Tired of ads?

Has no one considered that these kids saw and opportunity to play hookey and are using this as a convenient excuse? Kids have been doing evil deeds, under the cover of high principles for all of known history.
Tell me honestly that none of you have ever done it.
I know I did a few times.

If so, the kids get an A for effort but probably deserved their punishment.

	19-09-2003 23:09									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Ads only work on the desires you already have... they can NOT make you buy something you don't want. If an ad "works" on you... it's because the desire was already there in the first place.

Ads are as much about creating preferences as they are about acting on pre-existing preferences.

My favorite are ads that are not so much about the product advertised but that instead connect products to increased social status or to sex. The new products thereby attempt to "parasite off" drives that are typically unconnected to the function of the product. This is a fairly common method for advertising alcholic beverages, for example.

In cognitive science terms, advertisers attempt to stimulate modules such as those governing sexuality or social status and thereby associate a product with that stimulation. Does it always work? Is it 100% effective? Nope, but don't act as though advertising is not a form of behavior manipulation. And don't act as though the ad industry is not aware of this.

	19-09-2003 23:10									#140
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quote: Originally posted by rah If so, the kids get an A for effort but probably deserved their punishment.

You mean, jail?


Right...

	19-09-2003 23:14									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld You mean, jail? Right...

If they were just trying to skip school and created the ruckus that they did, Hell YES.
Mommy we skipped school but it's not our fault. WE um um um objected to watching commercials in school. It's not our fault, really. You should hire some lawyers or call the papers or civil liberty groups and get some people to punish the evil school district for treating us the way they did.

	19-09-2003 23:15									#142
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quote: Originally posted by rah If they were just trying to skip school and created the ruckus that they did, Hell YES. Mommy we skipped school but it's not our fault. WE um um um objected to watching commercials in school. It's not our fault, really. You should hire some lawyers or call the papers or civil liberty groups and get some people to punish the evil school district for treating us the way they did.

They walked out of class and got put in jail. THEN the civil liberty groups got involved, and for good reason.

	19-09-2003 23:17									#143
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And even if they truely did it like they said, If you're going to perform civil disobediance, you must be willing to accept the punishment without whining about it. While the punishment may have been a bit much, I don't think it was that excessive.

SO either way, I have no problem with the punishment.

	19-09-2003 23:19									#144
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Gods, locking up fourteen year olds for the "civil disobediance" of skipping class?
I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

	19-09-2003 23:19									#145
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Am I going to deny that we don't try to create the most effective advertising possible... No. But can it make you buy a product you wouldn't normally buy... No.

You raise an excellent example with beer advertising. Yeap... you will be hipper if you drink our beer vs another... a typical message... or drinking our beer will get you laid... standard young adult messages.

But... a beer ad can't make a person who has no interest in drinking... drink beer. It can't make somebody who hates the taste of beer and prefers wine, drink beer. It can "MAYBE" make somebody who drinks beer want to drink one brand vs another...

It could make a person TRY beer for the first time... Just like watching a buddy drink a beer, or seeing somebody drink a beer in a movie... but whether they continue to drink beer, or never drink beer again will have EVERYTHING to do with the experience, and NOTHING to do with the ad.

So it's a matter of brand preference... not behavour modification... because a non beer drinker will not just start drinking beer because of an ad.

	19-09-2003 23:24									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Gods, locking up fourteen year olds for the "civil disobediance" of skipping class? I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

I doubt they were put in a cell with hardened criminals.
They broke a rule. And were punished no worse then being grounded in there room for a few days.
And regardless of what's been posted (there is no definative proof as to their motive)

Heck, when we were young, if you did that to a NUN, they would have beat the crap out of you and then your parents would have too when you got home. And the next time, you showed a little more respect.

That's half the problem with this "THE WORLD OWES ME" generation.

	19-09-2003 23:30									#147
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quote: Originally posted by rah I doubt they were put in a cell with hardened criminals. They broke a rule. And were punished no worse then being grounded in there room for a few days. And regardless of what's been posted (there is no definative proof as to their motive) Heck, when we were young, if you did that to a NUN, they would have beat the crap out of you and then your parents would have too when you got home. And the next time, you showed a little more respect. That's half the problem with this "THE WORLD OWES ME" generation.

Man, you're nuts. They're just skipping class. It's their choice if they want to attend class or not. That is not something you send them to jail for, it is something that you should warn the kid of the effects it may have on his grades, and leave it at that.

And please don't tell me you think they should be beaten instead.

	19-09-2003 23:31									#148
	Tired of ads?

They should attend class or not attend class. It ain't something they can come and go from as they please.

Like those stupid ppl at the theaters who leave and reEnter like every 15 minutes!!

	19-09-2003 23:35									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Japher They should attend class or not attend class. It ain't something they can come and go from as they please.

My teacher's often gave me the opportunity of leaving in the middle of a class.

	19-09-2003 23:36									#150
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It's good to see young people are still willing to Question the Authority of the Media Listening to "authorities" kept us in Vietnam, excused the murder in Chile etc. Explore the answers within, you may discover abundance on earth - such as converting to Solar, and national policies that don't p*** off the rest of the planet. In my generation the Mings said, "My country right or wrong", this generation they seem to be saying, "My greenhouse effect right or wrong".