28-09-2003 10:50									#61
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quote: Because some team you thought was great turned out to be only good? They should get another shot based on your subjective opinion as to their quality?

So you think that as a result of today that Cal is a better overall football team than USC?

Say if 3 teams go undefeated, I guess we'll go to 'objective' opinion? Oh wait, we don't have any 'objective' opinion. Why demean someone's subjective opinion on quality when you back the same things by backing the poll system .

quote: Every game counts, even the "flukes."

And in the end the best teams don't meet on the field for the championship. But that's ok, that's why college football's "championship" is such a joke .

quote: I doubt it.

Why? They seem like they end up losing to them every year.

	28-09-2003 10:54									#62
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quote: So you think that as a result of today that Cal is a better overall football team than USC?

They were today. That's why they play the games.

quote: Say if 3 teams go undefeated, I guess we'll go to 'objective' opinion? Oh wait, we don't have any 'objective' opinion. Why demean someone's subjective opinion on quality when you back the same things by backing the poll system

The BCS system isn't perfect and some subjective decisions end up being required. That being said, it's still a hell of a lot better than any playoff would be.

quote: And in the end the best teams don't meet on the field for the championship.

The teams who had the two best seasons usually do.

	28-09-2003 11:00									#63
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quote: They were today. That's why they play the games.

So in your poll Cal is ranked higher than USC? :hmm:

quote: The BCS system isn't perfect and some subjective decisions end up being required. That being said, it's still a hell of a lot better than any playoff would be.

Bullshit. In the playoff, you'd allow 8 teams (or more) to decide who is the best team in the country, instead of 2. Since every team can't play every team, a 4 or 8 (or even 16) playoff is infinetly better than a 2 team one.

quote: The teams who had the two best seasons usually do.

Usually? So what happens when you have a situation like you did two years back when you have more than one team that has 1 loss vying for the last spot in the 'national championship'? How do you decide the 'best season'? It ends up being totally subjective.

Why is a 12-0 Miami team in the Big East better than a 12-1 Georgia team in the SEC? Who is better? Why is the Miami team better when the teams it plays aren't the teams that the Georgia team plays, and there is hardly any overlap between the two conferences at all?

Much better to exclude the 5th team or the 9th team rather than the 3rd. In that case you'd get rid of a 2 loss team rather than perhaps an undefeated or a 1 loss team.

	28-09-2003 11:05									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: What about the other USC CAL 34 - USC 31 Yeah... WOW.. the Top 10 looks radically different this week. USC (3) and Iowa (9) both go down. USC stays in the Top 10, but Iowa definetly falls way out.

Not so sure about USC stayin in the top 10. They've really played an easy schedule so far as it seems Auburn isn't as good as people thought they were, and they lost to Cal, who for some odd reason, just has had their number the past 2 years.

Pete Carroll (sp?) can take the blame for the loss, but his team was beat on the field.

	28-09-2003 11:17									#65
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quote: So in your poll Cal is ranked higher than USC? :hmm:

I don't have a poll. Polls are stupid. I prefer to judge teams by their on-field performance, not some subjective determination of quality. If you go undefeated, you get a shot at the title. If you don't, too bad. No need for a poll.

quote: Why is a 12-0 Miami team in the Big East better than a 12-1 Georgia team in the SEC?

Miami won all their games. Georgia didn't. Not too hard to figure out.

	28-09-2003 11:27									#66
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quote: Polls are stupid. I prefer to judge teams by their on-field performance, not some subjective determination of quality. If you go undefeated, you get a shot at the title. If you don't, too bad. No need for a poll.

And what if no one goes undefeated and 4 teams have 1 loss? What if you have 3 teams go undefeated? Without a 'subjective' determination who do you decide goes for the title? Answer, you CAN'T!

quote: Miami won all their games. Georgia didn't. Not too hard to figure out.

Miami also played in a FAR weaker conference than Georgia and if you switched the teams, perhaps Georgia goes undefeated as well .

It is only easy to figure out for those who can't understand that in a 110+ league two teams in different conferences don't play anywhere near the same opponents.

In other sports, to balance out that obvious disparity between different divisions, you have a playoff.

In college football, a team with 1 loss from one conference may be worse than a 3 loss team from another conference because the quality of teams in those conferences. For example a 2 loss team last year who had the hardest schedule in college football could have been better than a 1 loss team that had a 30th-40th hardest schedule... because they don't play the same teams at all and their conferences have a vast disparity in talent.

	28-09-2003 11:32									#67
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That Oregon WSU game was brutal. I don't think I've ever seen such a one-sided game.
The Ducks were totally disjointed and gift wrapped the ball about 142 times to the WSU defense.
U-G-L-Y.
The Pac 10 champion could be just about anybody at this stage...sheesh. What a crazy year for ranked teams.

	28-09-2003 11:33									#68
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quote: And what if no one goes undefeated and 4 teams have 1 loss?

Then none of them truly deserve the title. Two of them will luck out and get a shot, but it isn't the real thing, in my mind at least.

quote: What if you have 3 teams go undefeated?

Ah, the Achilles heel of the current system. Good thing it doesn't happen very often.

quote: Without a 'subjective' determination who do you decide goes for the title? Answer, you CAN'T!

I already admitted that some subjectivity is required. It still has a lot fewer subjective decisions than a playoff would.

quote: In college football, a team with 1 loss from one conference may be worse than a 3 loss team from another conference because the quality of teams in those conferences. For example a 2 loss team last year who had the hardest schedule in college football could have been better than a 1 loss team that had a 30th-40th hardest schedule... because they don't play the same teams at all and their conferences have a vast disparity in talent.

Your problem is that you think that the national title in college football is meant to go to the best team. It isn't, as it's almost impossible to determine who the best team is out of 110 candidates. College football rewards the best season instead, which is an actually workable system.

	28-09-2003 11:33									#69
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quote: I don't have a poll. Polls are stupid. I prefer to judge teams by their on-field performance, not some subjective determination of quality. If you go undefeated, you get a shot at the title. If you don't, too bad. No need for a poll. quote: Why is a 12-0 Miami team in the Big East better than a 12-1 Georgia team in the SEC? Miami won all their games. Georgia didn't. Not too hard to figure out.

Okay, let's take Michigan and every year let's have them play all the teams in the WAC and add on a couple in the MAC for good measure and how many years do you think they would wind up with an undefeated record?

I don't like polls either, but Miami being in the Big East has given them a much easier road to become national champions.

If you play weak teams (as Nebraska and Oklahoma used to do when the Big 8 was more like the Big 2) then you have an easier time of being undefeated and an easier task of being the national champ.

Say what you will, but strength of schedule is very important in determining season records, especially when you only play 12-13 games a year.

	28-09-2003 11:37									#70
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quote: I don't like polls either, but Miami being in the Big East has given them a much easier road to become national champions.

Very true, but the Big East is just barely good enough for me to respect it and their non-conference schedule is usually pretty packed.

The new, bad-ass ACC makes this complaint a thing of the past, however. Yeah for super conferences.

quote: Say what you will, but strength of schedule is very important in determining season records, especially when you only play 12-13 games a year.

I agree. I just figured that a minimum strength of schedule requirement went without saying.

	28-09-2003 11:52									#71
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quote: Then none of them truly deserve the title. Two of them will luck out and get a shot, but it isn't the real thing, in my mind at least.

How can you have a sport that doesn't give a national championship every year? When MLB went on strike people thought that was a joke, can you imagine a league that doesn't guarentee a national champion?!

quote: Ah, the Achilles heel of the current system. Good thing it doesn't happen very often.

And what if it does? Then you have major problems, especially if you are saying the championship is 'objective'. If you just continue to say the national championship doesn't mean anything and is totally subjective then this doesn't matter.

quote: Your problem is that you think that the national title in college football is meant to go to the best team.

Isn't the point of declaring a NATIONAL CHAMPION is to declare that this is the best TEAM?! Call it the 'National Championship Season' then .

quote: Very true, but the Big East is just barely good enough for me to respect it and their non-conference schedule is usually pretty packed. The new, bad-ass ACC makes this complaint a thing of the past, however. Yeah for super conferences.

So what if a team such as BYU or Syracuse goes undefeated next year and NO other team goes undefeated? You wouldn't mind a BYU/Syracuse national championship? After all they would be the only undefeated teams.

quote: I agree. I just figured that a minimum strength of schedule requirement went without saying.

You want it as minimum as possible (basically preventing any 'minor' conference from having a chance... creating a 1-A(a) and a 1-A(b))

	28-09-2003 12:00									#72
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quote: Then you have major problems, especially if you are saying the championship is 'objective'.

When did I say it was "objective"? I said it was less subjective than a playoff. It's not even worth talking to you if you're going to misrepresent my arguments, especially when I went over this all ad nauseum with Ming last year.

quote: Isn't the point of declaring a NATIONAL CHAMPION is to declare that this is the best TEAM?!

No.

quote: So what if a team such as BYU or Syracuse goes undefeated next year and NO other team goes undefeated? You wouldn't mind a BYU/Syracuse national championship? After all they would be the only undefeated teams.

If they were the only two undefeated teams, I wouldn't mind at all.

	28-09-2003 12:04									#73
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quote: I said it was less subjective than a playoff. It's not even worth talking to you if you're going to misrepresent my arguments, especially when I went over this all ad nauseum with Ming last year.

Yes, when he whipped your ass .

The reason advances for the BCS was that it was an objective way to pick the winner. Nevertheless, how is a two game national championship LESS subjective than a playoff when you have so many different conferences in 1-A football? You need to have a larger playoff in order to filter out which team is the best and had the best season, while accounting for their totally different schedules. How much do you factor in a strength of schedule calculation anyway?

quote: No.

Um yes. Is OSU the national championship team or the team that had the national championship season? Don't be daft, by winning the 'National Championship' they are considered the best team.

quote: If they were the only two undefeated teams, I wouldn't mind at all.

What an utterly silly statement.

So you were pissed when 13-0 Toledo didn't go to the National Championship game?

	28-09-2003 12:16									#74
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quote: You need to have a larger playoff in order to filter out which team is the best and had the best season, while accounting for their totally different schedules. How much do you factor in a strength of schedule calculation anyway?

How exactly does a playoff help filter out which team had the best season? It doesn't; it just lets you determine who the hottest team at the end of the season is. This isn't necessarily the best team, or the team with the best season.

quote: How much do you factor in a strength of schedule calculation anyway?

I like the weight given to it in the BCS formula.

quote: Is OSU the national championship team or the team that had the national championship season?

They're the team that had the best season, which is the same as being the national championship team.

quote: Don't be daft, by winning the 'National Championship' they are considered the best team.

I don't consider OSU to have been the best team last year. They got a lot of lucky breaks and I still think Miami would've beat them 8 or 9 games out of 10. This doesn't matter, however. They had the best season and are therefore the national champions, based on how they played, not my or anyone else's subjective opinion of how good they are. A wonderful system.

quote: So you were pissed when 13-0 Toledo didn't go to the National Championship game?

Not really, but Toledo hardly plays a schedule as tough as BYU's or Syracuse's.

	28-09-2003 12:25									#75
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quote: How exactly does a playoff help filter out which team had the best season? It doesn't; it just lets you determine who the hottest team at the end of the season is. This isn't necessarily the best team, or the team with the best season.

Isn't the team that wins the National Championship game the 'hottest team'? What if a 1 loss team beats an undefeated team? Didn't the undefeated team have the best season according to you?

A playoff would allow conferences that have harder competition to not miss out on the National Championship because teams in easier conferences can win out.

quote: I like the weight given to it in the BCS formula.

I think it should be drastically increased. SoS between the big conferences really doesn't matter that much at all.

quote: They're the team that had the best season, which is the same as being the national championship team.

No, they are the best team, which is the same as being the National Championship team.

Saying the National Champion means the team with the best season instead of the best team, is very counterintuitive. When the NFL calls its SuperBowl winner 'NFL Champions' is it saying that team had the best season? Nope, they are saying that is the best team. To say the 'National Champion' isn't the best team, but the team with the best overall season is an utterly silly argument.

quote: They had the best season and are therefore the national champions, based on how they played, not my or anyone else's subjective opinion of how good they are. A wonderful system.

A horrible system. A 'National Champion' means the best team. If you think the best team didn't win, then the BCS failed.

The best system in college sports, by FAR, is the NCAA college basketball tournament. It isn't even close.

quote: Not really, but Toledo hardly plays a schedule as tough as BYU's or Syracuse's.

And BYU and Syracuse play no where near a schedule as tough as USC and OU. So?

	28-09-2003 12:36									#76
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quote: Isn't the team that wins the National Championship game the 'hottest team'?

You have to play consistently great football over the course of the whole season to make it to the National Title game as it is now. The same can't be said for a playoff, where a two or even three loss team could sneak in and win it all by being hot at the end of the season.

quote: A 'National Champion' means the best team.

How do you figure that? It means the champion of the system in place, which in college football rewards teams with a spotless or nearly spotless record, not the team that is simply the most talented.

quote: When the NFL calls its SuperBowl winner 'NFL Champions' is it saying that team had the best season? Nope, they are saying that is the best team.

The NFL and college football aren't the same, thank god.

quote: To say the 'National Champion' isn't the best team, but the team with the best overall season is an utterly silly argument.

Only to people who don't appreciate college football for what it is and want to change it to a clone of the NFL.

quote: If you think the best team didn't win, then the BCS failed.

The best team didn't win last year, but I still think the BCS worked fine. It's Miami's fault that they choked in the big game, not the system's.

quote: The best system in college sports, by FAR, is the NCAA college basketball tournament. It isn't even close.

That's your opinion. I prefer the college football bowls, myself.

	28-09-2003 12:46									#77
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quote: So you think that as a result of today that Cal is a better overall football team than USC?

Yes. Go Bears!

	28-09-2003 13:18									#78
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quote: You have to play consistently great football over the course of the whole season to make it to the National Title game as it is now. The same can't be said for a playoff, where a two or even three loss team could sneak in and win it all by being hot at the end of the season.

If a team loses 3 games in its conference, I can bet they won't go to the playoff, because they won't win their conference.

quote: How do you figure that? It means the champion of the system in place, which in college football rewards teams with a spotless or nearly spotless record, not the team that is simply the most talented.

In every sport people equate the term 'champion' as being the same as 'best team'. If you end up as champion, then you can go on about how you were the best team. Hell, most OSU fans talk about how they were the BEST TEAM last year, not that they had the best season!

quote: The NFL and college football aren't the same, thank god.

Yes, the NFL is a much better product, which makes more money and has more fans.

quote: Only to people who don't appreciate college football for what it is and want to change it to a clone of the NFL.

Sorry for me wanting to change an inferior product to a superior one .

quote: The best team didn't win last year, but I still think the BCS worked fine. It's Miami's fault that they choked in the big game, not the system's.

Can't someone just as easily say that, say, USC was the 'best team' last year? They weren't able to play in the Big Game. This is sadder in light of the fact that USC's strength of schedule was so much harder than Miami's was.

	28-09-2003 13:27									#79
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quote: If a team loses 3 games in its conference, I can bet they won't go to the playoff, because they won't win their conference.

When did winning your conference become a pre-requisite to being in the playoff? Most of the proposals I've seen tend to just take the top 8 teams in the BCS, which would certainly allow non-conference champs to participate.

You could also lose two or three games in non-conference and still manage to win your conference championship, if that's a requirement.

quote: In every sport people equate the term 'champion' as being the same as 'best team'.

Not soccer. The team with the best season is the champ, at least in league standings. Subjective judgements of quality don't factor into the decision.

quote: Hell, most OSU fans talk about how they were the BEST TEAM last year, not that they had the best season!

Most people don't recognize the subtle difference. Hell, you're a pretty smart guy and you can't recognize it, so why would the average fan?

quote: Sorry for me wanting to change an inferior product to a superior one

You should be. If you like the NFL, then watch it. Just don't ruin college football just so you can have NFL-lite to watch on Saturday.

quote: Can't someone just as easily say that, say, USC was the 'best team' last year?

They could. There's really no way of knowing, which is why you base the championship on who had the best season, not which team may or may not be the most talented.

quote: They weren't able to play in the Big Game. This is sadder in light of the fact that USC's strength of schedule was so much harder than Miami's was.

I don't find it sad at all. They had their shot and they blew it. End of story.

	28-09-2003 13:41									#80
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quote: When did winning your conference become a pre-requisite to being in the playoff? Most of the proposals I've seen tend to just take the top 8 teams in the BCS, which would certainly allow non-conference champs to participate.

Funny, since you claim that people don't listen to your arugments, I thought you'd listen to others .

In the other debates we all liked Guy's initial proposal for the 11 conferences to have their winner go with one at-large team. There you go, even less subjective than the system now.

quote: You could also lose two or three games in non-conference and still manage to win your conference championship, if that's a requirement.

Yes, and you could have 5 undefeated teams.

quote: Not soccer. The team with the best season is the champ, at least in league standings. Subjective judgements of quality don't factor into the decision.

In soccer leagues, the league champion is the best team. The 'cups' are considered extra. They are FA Cup champions, etc. Calling someone a 'National Champion' is calling them a league champion. In this case the league is the NCAA, Division 1-A.

quote: Most people don't recognize the subtle difference. Hell, you're a pretty smart guy and you can't recognize it, so why would the average fan?

I recognize the difference just fine. BCS apologists such as yourself can't recognize the real difference that 'National Champions' are considered the best team, not the team with the best overall season.

quote: If you like the NFL, then watch it. Just don't ruin college football just so you can have NFL-lite to watch on Saturday.

I'm actually trying to make the bush-league college game better. I think your ilk (BCS apologists) have made it MUCH worse.

The game was much better before the BCS. College teams played their games and conference champs and at large teams faced off in bowls. Everyone knew that the so-called 'National Championship' was just a totally subjective determination of which was the best team. That was 10 times better than this BCS crap.

The sport has already been trashed so badly by the BCS, that really the tradition of the bowls means nothing anymore. This is why a playoff is no big deal to me. The bowls mean jack since the BCS came along.

I can't believe that USC and Iowa played on the EAST COAST when they were the the #1 Pac 10 and (tied) #1 Big 10 school! Your ilk have ALREADY RUINED college football. You can't complain then that people are ruining the sport when they advocate a playoff.

quote: There's really no way of knowing, which is why you base the championship on who had the best season, not which team may or may not be the most talented.

Um yes, there is a way of knowing. It's called a playoff system.

quote: I don't find it sad at all. They had their shot and they blew it. End of story.

Yeah, great shot... they get the toughest schedule in the country and you ask them to be as perfect as teams that have the 40th toughest schedule.

This is why playoffs exist, to give an ACTUAL shot to teams that have differing schedules.

	28-09-2003 13:53									#81
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quote: In the other debates we all liked Guy's initial proposal for the 11 conferences to have their winner go with one at-large team.

I know you guys liked that proposal, but I thought we were talking about the real world here. In the real world, Guy's proposal has almost no chance of coming to fruition.

quote: In soccer leagues, the league champion is the best team.

Not necessarily. An injury to a star player can prevent a team from ending top of the table, even if they're the best team in the league. Just look at Arsenal last season. It's the team with the best season, not the most talent, that wins the championship.

Oh, almost forgot the deadly...

quote: BCS apologists such as yourself can't recognize the real difference that 'National Champions' are considered the best team, not the team with the best overall season.

Why should I accept a definition you just made up that goes against real-world evidence? It's obvious that the "national champion" in college football is the team with the best season, whether you want to admit it or not.

quote: I'm actually trying to make the bush-league college game better. I think your ilk (BCS apologists) have made it MUCH worse.

quote: I can't believe that USC and Iowa played on the EAST COAST when they were the the #1 Pac 10 and (tied) #1 Big 10 school!

That was bullshit, I agree, but it wasn't the fault of the BCS system. Blame the Orange Bowl and the other greedy bastards who ditched tradition in order to make a quick buck.

quote: Um yes, there is a way of knowing. It's called a playoff system.

A playoff just tells you who the best team is at the end of the year. It would end the "every game is vital" attitude that makes college football so exciting.

quote: Yeah, great shot... they get the toughest schedule in the country and you ask them to be as perfect as teams that have the 40th toughest schedule.

Oh, boo hoo. Take Palmer and Co. off the cross, please.

	28-09-2003 19:19									#82
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I am mostly on Drake's side with a little bit towards Imran. I think we have to let flukes count. It makes the games mean something. And gets us away from "fantasy league" evaluations. Performance matters. If you **** up and get upset, pay your penalty. But I think there should be some compensation for what type of league you play in. But not too much. If a team is undefeated in any major conference, it should have a slot at the championship...unless there are 3 such teams. Note the MAC and WAC are not major conferences. The Big East has several good schools. Pitt, Va Tech, Miami, Syracuse. Yeah there are some weak ones....but the Big Ten has NU.

And I LOVE the polls. Love the controversy...love the messiness of it. I liked it even better pre-BCS, fun listening to the Big Ten whine about not being in championships...but still act all haughty like being in the Rose Bowl is MORE important. FUN!

And I don't need to see the best team win every year. This is football. The 1969 Jets were not the best team. But they pulled it out. If we want the best team to win we could have a playoff and have best of 7 series like basketball...but that would suck.

	28-09-2003 19:20									#83
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what makes it fun IS the possibility of upsets. Increases the tension. I'm a little bit of a Michigan fan, but I love that they got upset. This is FOOTBALL.

	28-09-2003 19:23									#84
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quote: But I think there should be some compensation for what type of league you play in. But not too much.

I agree with you on this.

quote: Note the MAC and WAC are not major conferences.

This too. Looks like our opinions aren't that far off.

quote: fun listening to the Big Ten whine about not being in championships...but still act all haughty like being in the Rose Bowl is MORE important. FUN!

That's why I still hate the Big Ten, the arrogant *****.

	28-09-2003 21:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Wow. Washington State routed Oregon, 55-16. I wonder what this says about Michigan?

Well...

Michigan pimp-slapped Notre Dame all over the field...
Notre Dame edged out Washington State...
And Washington State took a big crap in the middle of Autzen Stadium and forced the Ducks to eat it.


It just doesn't work that way, Drake. You're smart enough to know that.

	28-09-2003 21:55									#86
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Oh, and Drake...

Let's say there is one, and only one, undefeated team this year. And it's not Miami, or Oklahoma, or Nebraska, or Florida State, or Ohio State, or Georgia, or Virginia Tech.

But, instead, it's Northern Illinois.

What say you then?

	28-09-2003 23:00									#87
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Hey hey, as much as I despise Ok State they have some talent on their team. Maybe not consistent talent...........

Big XII ain't looking that buff this season.

	29-09-2003 03:03									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What section are you going to be in... I'll look for you.

Section K, the east side of the stadium on the south 40 yard line

I was wearing a long sleave orange shirt and sitting among 200 other students wearing orange shirts

Illinois' defense can't stop the pass (Illinois State's 500 passing yards) and it can't stop the run either (Wisconsin's 200+ yards running)

	29-09-2003 03:11									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Imram Siddiqui Yes, the NFL is a much better product, which makes more money and has more fans.

Better product: yes
more money: yes
more fans: no

	29-09-2003 03:44									#90
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More emotion: No
More at stake each game: No
More Tradition: No