27-09-2003 03:44									#61
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Unfortunately for you, reality has things like friction and inelasticity.

	27-09-2003 03:47									#62
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What the hell does "friction" mean? And where exactly are you going with elasticity?

I'm a physics nerd, not an econ nerd.

	27-09-2003 03:48									#63
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I agree MtG, we should go after the employeers too.

My buddy is a P.I. and half of his cases are for employeers declaring workman's comp on illegals, who aren't even hurt half the time.

Also, if you think for one minute that I am xenophobic or dislike Mexicans you can kiss my white asS, or one of the brown asSes of my vatos, wey... who are legal, and, by the way, just as much against illegal immigration as I am...

	27-09-2003 03:54									#64
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat You want to know what the load of **** is? You want to keep them greasy beaners out of your white country? It's simple. Imprison those who employ them and confiscate their assets to fund the Border Patrol.........

I tried to warn you guys, but noooo.
Told you he was in the house.
Told you he was going to go ballistic.
Wouldn't listen, again.
And now look at what you've done.

	27-09-2003 03:54									#65
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Wow! And I didn't even mean this to be a troll!

	27-09-2003 03:56									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Because it's wrong to call getting a better life for your family without hurting anyone or escaping political persecution a "crime."

As to 1) why is it necessary to avoid normal immigration means? The assumption here is that people can apply for immigration in their home country just like anyone else. Illegals simply cut in line in front of the law abiding.

As to 2), I fully agree with you. Political refugees should be fully welcome here in the US. This is why I so strongly disagree with returning the refugees from Castro's paradise. However, I was unaware that Mexico was a completely fascist country that prevented legal immigaration to the US.

	27-09-2003 03:58									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What the hell does "friction" mean? And where exactly are you going with elasticity? I'm a physics nerd, not an econ nerd.

Now this, is quote material.

	27-09-2003 03:59									#68
	Friction and Inelasticity Get a bigger avatar today!

Are analogs for the reasons why free and open borders are a bad idea for any country concerned about things like smuggling, terrorism, public safety, etc.

	27-09-2003 04:00									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If they are fleeing political persecution then all they have to do is file for refugee status. Lord knows we give that away to just about everyone who asks so it's not like it's difficult to get.

Bullshit. If you're fleeing political persecution, whether you get even temporary status depends on whether the policy of the United States government is to embarass the government in question. If it's a "friendly" government, no matter how oppressive, your chances of getting political asylum are extremely slim, and if you're a leftist fleeing from a friendly righ-wing government, they're just about zero.

quote: They can wait in line, fill out forms, and get a green card just like everyone else did. The thing is these people think they are to good to do things the legal way. They think the law doesn't apply to them. They know damn well what they're doing is illegal but they do it any way because they believe they won't be caught and that they will make lots of money by committing their criminal acts.

Bullshit. Just carpet chewing racist bullshit. If someone gets in line for a green card, whose job is he or she going to be competing for? Yours, pancho. Because with the green card, he or she can apply for any job for which he or she can get hired. The illegals are in tune with their job market, via the smugglers who are in many cases contracted by US based employers. Their job market isn't the same as yours or a green card holders - it's to do menial job that good ol' American sponges would rather sit on their ass and draw unemployment or welfare rather than go out and do.

"Gee, picking lettuce in the fields for $40 a day won't look good on my resume, and besides, that's hard work. I think I'll just draw unemployment and say I'm consulting or doing continuing education."

They won't make "lots of money" except by bottom end third world standards. Most of them won't make minumum wage, and the only "illegal" act is physically crossing the border. Of course, it's illegal to hire them, then there's that whole slew of labor law violations, tax law violations, and often occupational safety and health law violations by the employers, but we don't really want to roust them, now do we? So spare me the rant about how the dirty illegals are ****ing over the poor innocent white people.

If you think it's so ****ing atrocious they come across to do those jobs, and they make so much money, why don't you apply for a job as a field hand instead of taking money from the state? It's harvest season, there's plenty of jobs available. Not one California (or Texan) in ten has a legitimate excuse to claim unemployment and draw tax funded benefits.

quote: These criminals are spitting in the face of every person who ever bothered to do things the correct and legal way and what's worse is they're knowingly committing crimes for the soul purpose of personal financial gain.

The only people whose faces are getting spit in are the hypocrites who'd rather sponge off the government than take whatever job is available, even ones beneath their great white dignity, while blaming the dirt poor who are willing to work, and ignoring the lawbreaking of the employers.

	27-09-2003 04:02									#70
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See?

	27-09-2003 04:03									#71
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MtG, do you suggest that we simply "erase" the border between Mexico and the United States?

	27-09-2003 04:04									#72
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MtG; why don't you come up here and we'll go down to the Home Depot and have a chat with the 100s of Mexicans who hang out in the parking lot their looking for under the table work... Then, ask them why it needs to be under the table and why they won't except full time work if offered... Guess what! I asked them, you know what they say?

They won't do it because a) no green card, b) you can't collect welfare and make over 50k a year, and c) sometimes they don't "feel" like getting up in the morning...

Granted, they are smart. They have learned to take advantage of a "foreign" system, ya gotta give 'em that.

	27-09-2003 04:05									#73
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I'd rather keep the Canadians out.

	27-09-2003 04:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I agree MtG, we should go after the employeers too. My buddy is a P.I. and half of his cases are for employeers declaring workman's comp on illegals, who aren't even hurt half the time. Also, if you think for one minute that I am xenophobic or dislike Mexicans you can kiss my white asS, or one of the brown asSes of my vatos, wey... who are legal, and, by the way, just as much against illegal immigration as I am...

Everybody's against illegal immigration. As long as they still get the benefits from it.

You can't have it both ways - either get rid of unemployment and force unemployed whiteys to take jobs as contract ag laborers instead of getting benefits, or double (or more) the retail price of most ag commodities you buy in the US, or shut down the US ag sector and all the supporting industries, because a big enough portion of it to sink the entire sector is driven by illegal labor.

Let's see how many people spout off against it when they actually lose the collective economic benefit.

	27-09-2003 04:07									#75
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MtG, again, are you in favor of simply erasing the borders? Why even have borders? What are their purpose?

	27-09-2003 04:10									#76
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MtG: I am for having unemployed whitey's do the labor. You should know me better, as I accuse all poor ppl of being lazy

When I was in HS I use to pick strawberries after school... Yeah, that was a lot of fun... Got paid what I sold.

I wouldn't mind seeing the boarder erased, but I think Presindete Foxxy Man would

	27-09-2003 04:10									#77
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With fewer illegal immigrants you can give green cards to immigrants who are willing to do the hard labor ag jobs. Everybody wins, legally.

	27-09-2003 04:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, do you suggest that we simply "erase" the border between Mexico and the United States?

Not at all.

I just suggest that people who oppose a system they derive a net benefit from, and focus only on punishing the non-white, low economic power half of that system, have a bit of a problem with consistency.

During the Reagan administration, briefly, there was a big deal about spot checks of employers and sanctioning employers. It went away very quickly, under lobbying pressure from employers and employer organizations.

It's also a fashion in bad job markets to blame the frijoleros. We can't kick Ken Lay or Andy Fastow in the ass, but those little greasers in the fields?

	27-09-2003 04:12									#79
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How would they feel if we snuck down there, and took their bull fighting jobs?

	27-09-2003 04:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by pchang With fewer illegal immigrants you can give green cards to immigrants who are willing to do the hard labor ag jobs. Everybody wins, legally.

If you give them green cards, why would they still be willing to do the jobs nobody wants, when they'd have the legal right to compete for any job? How many green card holders do you find in the fields? Not very many.

	27-09-2003 04:13									#81
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quote: How would they feel if we snuck down their and took their bull fighting jobs?

I can't imagine Sloww bullfighting... Or running across a boarder for that matter...

	27-09-2003 04:13									#82
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MtG: I've posted serval times in this thread that we should fine the businesses who hire illegals out of business. That would make them examples of what happens to people or businesses who break the law.

Once we keep the law breakers out and gain control of the borders then we can increase the legal visas or expand the guest worker programs to fill any labor needs. The main point is to punish people who break the law and to reward the people who wait in line and do things the legal way.

	27-09-2003 04:15									#83
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I've ridden a bull.
I don't run any more since my motorcycle accident, but it's the bull that should be nervous.
Kick his ass.

	27-09-2003 04:15									#84
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand How would they feel if we snuck down there, and took their bull fighting jobs?

The bullrings would probably sell more tickets. Hell, I'd pay to see you dressed in one of those outfits runnin' like Stepin Fetchit from some big pissed-off bull.

Mexico has a lot of illegal immigrants too, how do you think people get from places like Colombia and El Salvador to the US? You think they fly in on United? They also come in from China, and all sorts of places.

	27-09-2003 04:16									#85
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Sure, our politicians bow down before lobbyists and their money, but what does that have to do with our views? We don't necessarily like the current system any better than you do. I know I voted against them.

As for Lay and Fastow, that has more to do with the Mckinsey Illuminati more than anything else. Don't get me started on them.

	27-09-2003 04:18									#86
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you give them green cards, why would they still be willing to do the jobs nobody wants, when they'd have the legal right to compete for any job? How many green card holders do you find in the fields? Not very many.

Maybe because that is the kind of work they are familiar with and maybe because they don't have the skills to do anything else.

Edit. Also, you don't have to limimt yourself to green cards. You could have work visas to allow people to come in and work in certain job classifications, etc.

	27-09-2003 04:22									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin MtG: I've posted serval times in this thread that we should fine the businesses who hire illegals out of business. That would make them examples of what happens to people or businesses who break the law. Once we keep the law breakers out and gain control of the borders then we can increase the legal visas or expand the guest worker programs to fill any labor needs. The main point is to punish people who break the law and to reward the people who wait in line and do things the legal way.

I think this is a bad idea. Too many Americans, including me, employ Mexicans without be too particular about their status. Going after the employers will only dry up jobs for the Mexicans making them totally dependent on welfare. Now that is a very bad idea.

	27-09-2003 04:23									#88
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat If you give them green cards, why would they still be willing to do the jobs nobody wants, when they'd have the legal right to compete for any job? How many green card holders do you find in the fields? Not very many.

There would still be a language barrier which would prevent most of them from getting other work. At least intially until they learned English. Besides I for one would gladely pay extra for a head of lettice if I know it was grown above board and didn't exploit anyone. If the growers didn't have illegal labor to exploit then wages would rise and we'd find all sorts of people who'd do the work. The point is wages are depressed do to surpluss illegal labor thus no one but illegals want's to do it. Remove the illegal labor and wages will rise.

	27-09-2003 04:24									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin MtG: I've posted serval times in this thread that we should fine the businesses who hire illegals out of business. That would make them examples of what happens to people or businesses who break the law. Once we keep the law breakers out and gain control of the borders then we can increase the legal visas or expand the guest worker programs to fill any labor needs. The main point is to punish people who break the law and to reward the people who wait in line and do things the legal way.

Two problems with that scenario:

It's not politically popular to expand work permits for brown people, even for crap jobs nobody wants. Try suggesting that in an election, and see how far down you go in the polls.

It's also no politically popular to go after employers, because they can buy politicians.

The current system "works" in it's own sick way, for everyone. Employers get cheap labor with no legal rights - screw unions, workplace conditions enforcement, etc. And/or yuppies get their cheap maids.

Border Patrol and INS have huge budgets.

Smugglers make tons of money, from the pollos, and now the smarter ones contract with employers.

The relative cost of a few of them littering the landscape by hanging out on some street corners, and the occasional trashed camp site, fire, etc. is less than the cost of having legal workers with full rights under the law and the ability to compete in the job market.

The job market regulates itself with a similar elasticity to the legal job market, because it doesn't do a pollo any good to pay a smuggler 1500 to get up here, if there's no work. Especially if he gets caught and deported 2-3 times. So the "flood" adjusts itself to the particular job market that hires them.

	27-09-2003 04:25									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat The bullrings would probably sell more tickets. Hell, I'd pay to see you dressed in one of those outfits runnin' like Stepin Fetchit from some big pissed-off bull. Mexico has a lot of illegal immigrants too, how do you think people get from places like Colombia and El Salvador to the US? You think they fly in on United? They also come in from China, and all sorts of places.

All true.