30-09-2003 06:24									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I agree with this one. The real beef is coming from the Ross-Perot wing of the Democrat party

In 1992 when Ross Perot got 21% of the vote he actually drew more Republican votes then Democratic votes and that's a major reason why Bush Sr. lost.

	30-09-2003 07:02									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But, are you sure they all want to return to Mexico? Are there reasons for Mexicans to want to stay in the United States other than economics?

Some mexicans will undoubtfully stay because of familiy ties in the US. But most will probably come back.

There are some regionalized cases of strong Mexico-US ties. For example here in the state I live, Puebla (live temporarily - before MtG gets on my case!) the southern part is mostly rural and poor. There are little town where practically everyone has a relative in the U.S. and its a fact of life that these people grow up only to try and cross the border eventually.

The Mexican community from Puebla is one of the largest in the U.S., based mostly around the N.Y. are. and much of them come from these little places. So, in these cases, probably these people might stay because the strong familiy bond.

However, this is only a very specific regional case. Most bonds aren't that strong which is why they come back eventually. And most of all, the people who cross the border are poor. Dirt poor. You won't see middle class (even low middle class) people cross illegally. I'd make a wild guess that immigration crosses the mind of 30% or less of the population here. And of course much less actually even dare to do it.

	30-09-2003 11:29									#213
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand "I can't believe how many people are against illegal immigration here at poly. " Makes as much sense as anything said. And people from Iowa don't know WTF is going on with it. What, worries over Nebraskans crossing the border? No! I bet it's that group from Northern Illinois. Sava and his gang.

There was a time when Californians despised the "Oakies".

Perhaps they still do.

	30-09-2003 11:38									#214
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If we sealed the borders, would there be new Oakies?

	30-09-2003 12:48									#215
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quote: And people from Iowa don't know WTF is going on with it. What, worries over Nebraskans crossing the border?

Why the hell would a Nebraskan want to go to Iowa?

	30-09-2003 20:02									#216
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: And people from Iowa don't know WTF is going on with it. What, worries over Nebraskans crossing the border? Why the hell would a Nebraskan want to go to Iowa?

Because eastern Iowa is actually more exciting to live in, than the entire state of Nebraska.

You can't beat the beautiful Mississippi River.

	30-09-2003 20:18									#217
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Jackasses. You talking about trees now?

It's OKIE.

	30-09-2003 20:32									#218
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Because eastern Iowa is actually more exciting to live in, than the entire state of Nebraska.

Some people consider Iowa to be an exciting place? Dear lord, what boring lives those people must lead.

	30-09-2003 21:43									#219
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That speaks volumes, doesn't it?

	30-09-2003 23:15									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Some mexicans will undoubtfully stay because of familiy ties in the US. But most will probably come back. There are some regionalized cases of strong Mexico-US ties. For example here in the state I live, Puebla (live temporarily - before MtG gets on my case!) the southern part is mostly rural and poor. There are little town where practically everyone has a relative in the U.S. and its a fact of life that these people grow up only to try and cross the border eventually.

A potential solution would be for Mexico and America to target economic development investments in the poor areas of Mexico to improve their lives and lessen the need to emigrate.

	30-09-2003 23:28									#221
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I agree, and one of those solutions might perchance be eliminating agricultural subsidies? Practically all the emigres are rural workers after all.

	01-10-2003 00:42									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Some people consider Iowa to be an exciting place? Dear lord, what boring lives those people must lead.

Iowa is not the most exciting state -- my point is that, EVEN a state like Iowa is better than a krapola state like Nebraska.

	01-10-2003 14:35									#223
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quote: You can't beat the beautiful Mississippi River.

It's really not that different from the Missouri River...

quote: Iowa is not the most exciting state -- my point is that, EVEN a state like Iowa is better than a krapola state like Nebraska.

I'm sorrry, but Nebraska is obviously better, mainly because we keep the gays out.

	01-10-2003 19:10									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten I'm sorrry, but Nebraska is obviously better, mainly because we keep the gays out.

No wonder why Nebraska is so . . .


boring AND backward.

	01-10-2003 19:12									#225
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Truthfully, Lincoln is chock full of homos, making it infinitely more fabulous than Des Moines. Not that that's difficult.

	01-10-2003 19:13									#226
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Davenport, Iowa has a large enough gay community to have four GOOD gay nightclubs -- not bars, but nightclubs.

	01-10-2003 19:16									#227
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I'm not really knowledgable about the gay nightclub scene in Lincoln.

	01-10-2003 19:46									#228
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I agree, and one of those solutions might perchance be eliminating agricultural subsidies? Practically all the emigres are rural workers after all.

We tried that in the mid 1990's and the EU was supposed to follow suit. Instead the French actually got the EU to INCREASE farm subsidies thus forcing the US to have to reinstate their subsidies albet at a lower level then before.

	02-10-2003 04:38									#229
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I am fundamentally against subsidies in principle. However, I don't understand how ending US subsidies could help Third World farmers because US subsidies act to keep prices up whereas lower prices that will result from ending subsidies will harm the Third World farmers.

	02-10-2003 04:44									#230
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You are wrong ned. What subsidies do is encourage over production which drives prices down. Since 1st workd farmers get the subsidy they survive the low prices while 3rd world farmer go bankrupt.

The best solution for most people would be free trade and the elimination of trade distorting subsidies.

	02-10-2003 04:53									#231
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Oerdin, AFAIK, we pay farmers not to grow, thereby keeping prices up. If we stopped doing that, prices would drop - across the world.

Is there something here that I do not understand?

	02-10-2003 05:49									#232
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Economics doesn't always work that way gov't bureaucrats or corporate lobbyists claim they do. The net effect of subsidies in most major markets is to allow US agribusinesses to export products to the world at prices below production cost, thereby ****ing over third world farmers.

quote: We tried that in the mid 1990's and the EU was supposed to follow suit. Instead the French actually got the EU to INCREASE farm subsidies thus forcing the US to have to reinstate their subsidies albet at a lower level then before.

That's absurd. The EU increasing their subsidies doesn't force us to do jack (and the same goes the other way, contrary to what some Euros claim). And the US gov't at no point made a serious effort at reducing agrisubsidies. All it's ever been has been rhetoric, aimed at getting concessions out of the third world.

	02-10-2003 05:56									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Economics doesn't always work that way gov't bureaucrats or corporate lobbyists claim they do. The net effect of subsidies in most major markets is to allow US agribusinesses to export products to the world at prices below production cost, thereby ****ing over third world farmers. That's absurd. The EU increasing their subsidies doesn't force us to do jack (and the same goes the other way, contrary to what some Euros claim). And the US gov't at no point made a serious effort at reducing agrisubsidies. All it's ever been has been rhetoric, aimed at getting concessions out of the third world.

Ramo, you really got to explain this to me. The subsidienies restrict the amout of land available to plant - or buy product, such as milk or butter, at support price levels. Both keep prices up. How does this help exports?

	02-10-2003 06:11									#234
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It's pretty simple, really. First of all, the world market, not the national market sets equilibrium prices. If the US gives money to wheat agribusinesses, they can afford to set their prices below equilibrium level, and drive, say, Bangladeshi wheat farmers out of business. It doesn't matter if they get more land, they'll still get more money from price supports and therefore are able to undercut third world peasants. Besides, the effect of such policies only serves to shift farming onto the most productive land so the difference in these businesses farming output isn't all that significant (well, actually, a lot of them wouldn't be solvent since they depend so much on welfare, so production would decrease substantially in the event of an elimination of agrisubsidies).

	02-10-2003 06:27									#235
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo That's absurd. The EU increasing their subsidies doesn't force us to do jack (and the same goes the other way, contrary to what some Euros claim). And the US gov't at no point made a serious effort at reducing agrisubsidies. All it's ever been has been rhetoric, aimed at getting concessions out of the third world.

Ramo, are you a drooling idiot? Stupid qustion I know but if the US didn't have to compete on international markets then we wouldn't have to worry about foreign subsidies. As it is the EU said they would follow suit if the US would just show leadership and cancel it's subsies. The US canceled it's subsidies for threee years, yet, instead of following through on it's promise to remove subsidies the EU increaseed subisides. They took advantage of American farmers by increasing subsidies in a time where American farmers had no subisidies.

They lyed to us. They economically attacked American farmers.

	02-10-2003 06:41									#236
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Oh bullshit. We do exactly the same thing. It's all just pissy *****ing that only screws over the third world. And when exactly did we cancel all our agrisubsidies?

	02-10-2003 06:49									#237
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The Freedom to Farm Act did not eliminate agrisubidies (if you're thinking about that). It only changed one form of agrisubsidies to another (fixed payments), and actually increased the amount of agricultural corporate welfare substantially.

	02-10-2003 06:52									#238
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And could we do without this namecalling? It only makes your piss-poor argument look even crappier.

	02-10-2003 08:45									#239
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Creating three posts in a row makes you cool?

	02-10-2003 08:55									#240
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Yes