28-09-2003 06:50									#1
	Displeasure at Consul intransigence Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

All the people who where in the chat today probably know beforehand what I'm about to complain about. I just want to make it plain clear that I was not kidding about my disgust at the attutude of a certain Consul when confronted with disagreements on my behalf as well as those of others. Granted, today's chat was very hectic, but by quelling any form of debate, all that was achieved in these cases was to get some people rather angry, instead of offering answers to those disagreements, answers worthy of a leadership position.


Case #1: The Golden Age

In the beginning of the chat, some of us suddenly became aware that it was intended to forcefully trigger our GA during our attack turn. I myslef though we were to wait until GCA triggered it for us, giving us some extra turns free (remember, a turn in a GA is a future turn without one). I really saw no reason in rushing our GA so soon unless our army suffered appaling casualties at the beginning, if we could get the job done with our current forces, no need to rush a GA IMO.

So, being in the turnchat, I see the inminent decision to trigger our GA. This is my reply in the main room and people who supported it:

quote: [16:08] [MasterZen] why the **** do we want to trigger our GA this turn forcefully??? [16:09] [Friedrich] Uh yeah [16:09] [Friedrich] I agree with that sentiment mightily [16:09] [MasterZen] it's silly, try to delay as much as possible [16:09] [Kloreep] I agree, no reason to trigger it ASAP. [16:09] [BigFurryMonster] Don't say "****". It triggers the RNG. [16:09] [Kloreep] lol [16:09] [WhiteBandit] yeah [16:09] [VladAnt] LOL [16:09] [WhiteBandit] i'm pretty much with you MZ [16:09] [Friedrich] deliberately triggering something that GCA might very well not trigger on their own for another 10 turns [16:09] [Friedrich] is stupid bordering on bovine [16:09] [Arnelos] LOL [16:10] [Friedrich] then we need to stop and talk with the MoW [16:10] [MasterZen] LOL! at Fried [16:10] [MasterZen] [Friedrich] is stupid bordering on bovine [16:10] [Friedrich] There is *absolutely* no good reason to trigger our GA now [16:10] [Dominae] I wish I could make my arguments stronger by being abrasive. [16:10] [MasterZen] exactly [16:10] [MasterZen] it's stupid if you ask me [16:10] [Friedrich] we already have double GCA's production [16:10] [Friedrich] they're going to be just as dead either way [16:10] [MasterZen] exactly

And this was our "leadership's" reply:

quote: [16:11] [BigFree] Listern, the decision to go with a GA was already made. If you felt so heavily against it, your arguments should have been made prior to now. ET has made plans for a GA now. [16:11] [Dominae] If the war goes badly for (bad results on the offense), we may want our GA to ensure we take out GCA. [16:11] [Friedrich] EXCUSE ME [16:11] [MasterZen] i'm serious, it's stupid! [16:12] [Friedrich] WHEN WAS THE DECISION MADE [16:12] [MasterZen] exactly, you can't just make these decision and not inform the people [16:12] [Friedrich] AND WHO WAS CONSULTED? [16:12] [Friedrich] I surely missed that [16:12] [Trip] I don't remember the decision being made either :P [16:12] [WhiteBandit] i think MZ is over reacting :P [16:12] [BigFree] You do not need to be consulted Fried [16:12] [Friedrich] Is this a democracy game or not? [16:12] [Trip] it was just kind of "assumed"

Note the part in bold. Nice way to prove your authority over others.

Upon, this a Quickie Poll (tm) was made whether to hear opinions over triggering the Golden Age on purpose, or not. Results:

In Favor: 2
Against: 8 (including Trip)
Abstain or undecided: 5

A further arrogant reaction in the turnchat room (some posts deleted for fluidity):

quote: [16:06] [Dominae] So, are we going to trigger our GA this turn or not? [16:06] [Trip] maybe [16:07] * MasterZen suggests against [16:07] [Dominae] GA this turn or no? I change my vote to no. [16:07] [MasterZen] I vote No also [16:08] [BigFree] the GA will start this turn [16:08] [Aggiemowa] no is my vote, but probbaly unaavoidable before nest [16:08] [Trip] we can decide whether or not to begin the GA if we're given the opportunity [16:08] [MasterZen] what are the arguments in favor? [16:08] [WhiteBandit] we should just play it by ear [16:09] [BigFree] Listen, the only people speaking right now is Trip and Myself

Great, shut up dissent.

Apparently all decisions were al ready taking, rendering all form of discussion and debate moot. What were the excuses? What were the points in favor? Nil at least on BigFree's part. Others argued that it would imply a last minute change of MoI orders and thus not practical. To this, our very capable MoI answered "I'm flexible".


Case #2: The Catapult Rush

After the attack movements, one of the first things that was done, was to get a Catapult rushed for 20g. Sounding like a rather unwise decision (seriously 5 or 6 cats doesn't make much a difference considering the magnitude of our attack, not least considering that was our last 20g), me and Dominae immediately complained. Too late, though, the action was taken. When we protested in the main room, this was the response:

quote: [17:52] [MasterZen] why did we rush a cat? [17:52] [MoI_E_T] The cat was supposed to be rushed last turn [17:52] [Dominae] Cat rush was a bad idea, IMO. [17:52] [MasterZen] very bad [17:52] [BigFree] MZ: Again, the plan was to rush the Cat all along.....

Mind you my patience by now had been wearing thin after the Golden Age discussion. But again. No answer on why it was a sound move. The reply: "we had already agreed to it". "We". Sorry but I don't understand why a decision which some of us took to be wrong, is nevertheless taken just because it was already agreed to. I would have expected something on the lines of "The decision was taken because of this, and this and this and that", not some lame "just because" reply.

I find that this lack of flexibility is totally against the spirit of a demo game. That just because something was decided on by a few people, and once others find out about it and disagree to it, that we get bullshit answers and refuse to even debate it. I would have no inconvenience at me and Dominae having been proved wrong and how building that Cat was a wise decision after all. All I wanted to to express my discontent at such a decision for the sake of not making the same mistake in the future.

Finally, it pains me to say it because I consider him a good friend, but I am really disappointed at BigFree's attitude as a Consul sometimes, and this is not the first time it has happened. I sense sometimes that "authority" has gotten to his head on occasion and instead of listening and debating, shrugs things off with the "I am a Consul and you're not" attitude. Frankly, we are not getting paid to be bossed around or to be treated like our opinions matter ****, and people will not be very pleased when this happens. I have never felt at any time that nye or MrWIA had this attitude either. This is not a job, this is a game.

I do not wish to call a CoC or anything similar since we are a nation at war and have more pressing matters than change of government. But I do hope that people take heed of this rant so that similar disagreements in the future are treated with much more tact than they had today. And rest assured that had this not been the start of our first and perhaps most vital war, I would not have hesitated at all for calling for more drastic changes.

Thank you for listening

-MZ

	28-09-2003 07:28									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

1. My impression is that we will start the GA on Turn 0. It's written in Trip's GCA War Thread.

"This should be the result of the first turn of our invasion. Ideally, all 4 GCA units we can attack on the first turn will be killed without costing us any casualties. With the 5 Catapults we have a good chance to do ~3 HP damage to the GCA Sword and Spear fortified on the iron, giving us a good shot at killing them both without losing any MIs.

Also, the GCA Horseman was attacked by a MI, where it then retreated and was finally killed by an NM to start our GA.

Army Group A is 6 of Elucidium/Rye, Army Group B is in the fort city."

2. No offense MZ, the role of the Consul is to listen to the discussion, make the decision and move on. There are times when he has to make unpopular decision that does not have majority support, and times when he has to suppress discussion because of time constraint or other reasons.

3. this is the most important period for Apolyton. Let's set aside our difference and move on.

4. Let's have ALL major discussion between the Turns. Turnchat should ONLY be used to affirm the moves and to discuss unforecasted events.

Just my 2 cents worth.

	28-09-2003 07:32									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Personally I think you're overreacting a tad, but I can see why you got offended. I didn't join the chat until after the first transaction occurred, and BF's reply could be construed as your opinion doesn't matter.

However, I've always been under the impression that our golden age would be timed for the first turn of the war, and I'm mostly a lurker, so I do agree with them that if you wanted to avoid it you could of brought it up before the war chat.


In any case, I think we should be more constructive than throwing accusations and discuss now whether or not we want to trigger the GA purposely on our next turn and under what conditions we will trigger it. Of course, it maybe a mute point after GCA plays if they counter attack.


So my personal vote:
We don't forcibally trigger our GA until halfway through the war (I doubt we can avoid it that long though really) unless it becomes clear our push into their territory is going to be stopped short of total victory without reinforcements. In any case, we should never let what is already decided get in the way of doing what is best for the team's chance to win the war and the game.



Anyways, not trying to offend anyone here, thats just my honest take on the situation.

	28-09-2003 07:39									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Again, I think there is a lot of overreacting going on.

Whether or not the plans had been discussed or were readily available, we've been planning this war since around Turn 80. That means there have been 40 turns that you, me, BigFree, Trip or anyone else could have brought these issues up.

Regarding the voting

quote: In Favor: 2 Against: 8 (including Trip) Abstain or undecided: 5

Sure, those numbers look impressively lopsided, but when you combine it down to those who specifically voted Against starting our Golden Age compare to those who Were Not Neccesarily Against It, you get the following:

Favor/Abstentions: 7
Against: 8

That sorta takes the wind out of your sails that most people were against starting our GA at that point.

Regarding the "shut up dissent", we were in a moderated room. BigFree had a right to say that. We set that room up for orders only, not debate on issues. That is why we had #ApolytonISDG

You raise the point that BigFree didn't give answers, but instead stormed out of the chat in an angry cloud. Perhaps there is a reason for that? I noticed you convientently ommited a section of the chat...

quote: [14:16:43] [MasterZen] THE PEOPLE OF APOLYTON THREATEN A REVOLT IF THE GA IS DELIBERATELY TRIGGERED! [14:16:47] [Pikesfan] Oh, attacking or defending with the UU? [14:16:48] [Togas] bah [14:16:51] [Togas] relax with your revolution [14:16:58] [BigFree] Listern, the decision to go with a GA was already made. If you felt so heavily against it, your arguments should have been made prior to now. ET has made plans for a GA now.

Our own Minister of the Interior, E_T wants the Golden Age now and has been planning for it. I think that is definitely one of the most influential decisions in this whole thing. If you're going to use Trip's vote on your side of the argument, I'd like to point out, that our very capable MoI who is flexible, still voted in favor of starting the GA now.

Regardless, I think the whole issue is being blown out of proportion.

	28-09-2003 07:47									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Maybe people missed the point here, but we're trying to focus on the GA issue - and as others have pointed out, we have no voice or say in that anyhow. We're focusing on the fact THAT we have no voice and no say, and that anyone who speaks out against a decision "already made" is told to STFU.

My problem is far less the GA (though I think it is silly to trigger a GA on someone who is barely one-third our manufacturing rival) and far more the imperious manner in which the concerns were treated. This is by no means the first time an "It shall be so" decision was handed down, and by no means the first time people have said "Huh? WTF?"

This is merely the first time a fuss is being kicked up about it. I respect the difficulty in the consul position and the challenges it poses. I do not respect anyone's right to tell me to STFU, simply because they disagree with me.

	28-09-2003 07:54									#6
	Support Apolyton

Again, apologies if I am overreacting. But I was not the only one who felt that way.

With respect to the golden age, I was rather surprised to see that it was taken as a "given" that we'd trigger when my logic, and apparently that of others was, different, that we'd wait until GCA triggered it.

To me, a GA is no small thing. I think it makes a big difference whether we choose to deliberatley trigger it or wait. In most of my experience, it has paid off to try and delay it (or even not force it at all in an early war) when I am attacking with overwhelimng force.

Things could have changed. We could've lost 7 med infs like in Trip's sim attacking the first spearman. In that case, it would be obviously wise to trigger it try and recover lost units ASAP. However, I would assume that these kinds of decision are NOT the ones to be taken beforehand when the battlefield dictates that so many things can change. Perhaps we could have lost those 7 units, perhaps we could have lost no units in the next 4 turns with GCA refusing to attack us and thus had we triggered it this turn would have been very foolish.

My point is that if E_T was willing to be flexible with the builds, why were some people insisting that we had to trigger it? That's the attitude I dislike.

Now, I totally agree with rush that the Consuls have sometimes to make an unpopular decision. But without explaining the whys? Like I said, I wouldn't have minded being proved wrong on both the GA and the Cat issue, on the contrary. But all I felt was like I was asking my parents "why" and getting the typical "because I say so" answer.

I knew this thread was not going to be well received by some, but I really felt strongly about it and decided to post it anyway. I'm glad it's being discussed.

-MZ

	28-09-2003 08:02									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by rush 1. My impression is that we will start the GA on Turn 0. It's written in Trip's GCA War Thread.

It was one of the possibilities and since some supported triggering the GA I added that to the turn run-through as one of the options.

I'm against triggering the GA early since we clearly have a technological, quantitative and strategic advantage - we should use as much of the GA as we can to improve our cities. Triggering it on the first turn of the war means that we're on "war footing" for more of it than if we wait. With BFC, Hispanica and Tripoli coming online very soon we'll have SEVEN cities which are capable of producing military units at a pace as good as the best of GCA's cities. They have Catchopolis and Balance of Power as their good cities, with Algalord and Dun na Anarchy possibly when they're at a higher pop and if they have Barracks. I'm not at all worried about out-producing them in units even without our GA.

	28-09-2003 08:23									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by WhiteBandit Again, I think there is a lot of overreacting going on. Whether or not the plans had been discussed or were readily available, we've been planning this war since around Turn 80. That means there have been 40 turns that you, me, BigFree, Trip or anyone else could have brought these issues up.

Sure, if I had known that triggering our GA was to be taken with the same minuscule importance as changing a WF, you bet I would have brought it up waaaay back.

quote: Sure, those numbers look impressively lopsided, but when you combine it down to those who specifically voted Against starting our Golden Age compare to those who Were Not Neccesarily Against It, you get the following: Favor/Abstentions: 7 Against: 8 That sorta takes the wind out of your sails that most people were against starting our GA at that point.

And those abstentions don't also mean those who Were Not Necessarily in Favor of It. If you look at it from this equally valid perspective,

Favor: 2
Against/Abstentions: 13

An abstention is precisely what it is: a non-opinion. Why put them in the "favor" grouping when they could easly have been more against it.

	28-09-2003 08:44									#9
	Got spare money?

Will the log to this chat be posted, I was unavailable at the time and would love to see the interactions (not of this particular topic) at the time.

As far as the GA issue is concerned, are we currently in it, or not? If not, then I suggest we put aside all the hard feelings and have a civil discussion/poll on the matter, as we have some time now with the entire world at war and saves probably being delayed a bit. The early days of a war are no time for bickering. For what its worth, I would agree with those who would seek to delay the GA as long as possible.

	28-09-2003 08:45									#10
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

We are not in the GA yet. We had the opportunity to trigger it, but the team chose to use an elite unit to try at a GL instead.

	28-09-2003 09:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

My thoughts before I read everyone's posts:

1. Back when I resigned from the MoI position and fell out of the loop, I also was unhappy without the leadership of our democracy game. Then I realized that many of the problems with our governement are actually necessary evils. The people playing the turns and making the decisions (Consuls, mostly) cannot wait on every single issue.

2. Thus, your vote in this democracy only counts as much as the effort you are willing to put into this team. This does not mean that your input is not welcome if you're a lurker. What it does mean is that if you cannot just arrive on the scene, wave your hands calling the current policy "stupid", and exepct to be heard or respected. If you care about the team and think something is important, it is your duty to bring it to everyone's attention. And yes, this does mean you cannot "assume" anything about current policy. It's better to repeat things than to have them overlooked.

3. Concerning this turn, if you thought that triggering the GA was a big deal, you should have said something before the turnchat. I'm no more than a lurker here and I knew well in advance that many plans we were making were dependent on our triggering our GA either this turn or the next. I think everyone just assumed that GCA would trigger it for us, and given this assumption went one step further and made plans to trigger it ourselves (more control for the MoI that way). But it looks like GCA may not trigger it for us. So we're left with a topic that requires real debate.

4. However, the place for this debate is ideally not at the last minute, as we tried to do it today. Triggering your GA is a big enough deal that we cannot just change all our plans at the last minute. It's easy to glance at this game and say to yourself you could do it better if you were playing solo, but the fact of the matter is a lot of people are putting a lot of work into this game, so hotshot comments are usually misguided. In general I agree with a Consul's right to go through with actions even when there is a dissenting opinion. That's why they're playing the turns and not you.

5. This said, I do agree that BigFree was a little standoff-ish today in the chat, given the weight of some of the discussions we were having. I believe this was a knee-jerk reaction to the attitudes of many people there. What should of been done (I think) is stop the turn for a couple of hours (no more than 3) and turn the chat into a discussion on the important topics. When you get 20 people from the team in chat, that's an opportunity for discussion, not a time to stifle it.

6. Additionally, I think the Consuls and Minister could be slightly more flexible (I know E_T tries to be). It's certainly easy to post all the orders and just follow them when the turn comes around, but in the upcoming turns we're going to have a lot of thinking to do during the turns. If we want good participation, I think we can go a long way if everyone in chat feels like they're part of the decision-making process, instead of observers of it.

7. To sum up: if you have any problem with the decisions made or the way things are run, it is your responsibility to make your opinion heard in a timely matter. Those who put most time into this game deserve to be those making the decisions (not only are they deserving, but it makes a lot of sense). I accepted this long ago: although I disagree with some of the decisions being made here (say, within the FAM), I know that I would be presuming too much to simply barge in and expect things to be done my way. If you want things done your way, you'll have to put in the time to convince people (Consuls especially) that that's the right way to do it.


Dominae

Last edited by Dominae on 28-09-2003 at 09:08

	28-09-2003 09:13									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dominae 5. This said, I do agree that BigFree was a little standoff-ish today in the chat, given the weight of some of the discussions we were having. I believe this was a knee-jerk reaction to the attitudes of many people there. What should of been done (I think) is stop the turn for a couple of hours (no more than 3) and turn the chat into a discussion on the important topics. When you get 20 people from the team in chat, that's an opportunity for discussion, not a time to stifle it.

I honestly don't think we would have needed any more than 20-30 minutes of thoughtful debate about the GA issue. A turnchat delay is just that, a turnchat delay but a mistake can hurt for a long time.

	28-09-2003 09:33									#13
	Suffering from ads?

You know, running out into the streets and yelling to everyone that you're not getting your way is not the way to go about getting it in the future. I'm really unhappy to see this thread because it's going to result in a very tense relationship between Master Zen and BigFree, try a lot of people's patience, and get a lot of people angry about something they have no right to be angry about.

We made a conscious choice early in this game not to require polls. We left behind the notion of direct democracy and we pridefully scoff at other teams when they tell us how they have to poll all of their decisions. We are more enlightened, in our own minds, because we have 3 leaders who we've given absolute authority to. Sure, we can remove them, but no one dares do something like THAT.

No one cares enough to even create elections ... it took us until today to get the law proposed. We have trusted these people to play the last 120 turns without being required to listen, poll, or debate.

This is all "much ado about nothing." We know what the rules are and we know who's in charge. Ultimately, our leaders decided not to start the GA and yet this thread was still created. That's really petty and really b*tchy and it bothers me to see this thread started and so much work put into an argument which basicly is, "BigFree blew me off and I want you to know about it."

--Togas

	28-09-2003 09:37									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

So...what's your position on this, Togas? It sounds like you're weaving in and out of sarcasm.




Dominae

	28-09-2003 09:46									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

My position? Last paragraph sums it up well enough.

--Togas

	28-09-2003 09:56									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

@Togas

I'm sorry but I think this is generating a position of extremism over what the role of a consul. On one side you are arguing that we voluntarily gave all power to the Consuls to decide. On the other hand I'm sure you feel I'm perhaps saying that everything should be decided by polls, neither which is right.

I too trust the Consuls to take decisions which may seem unpopular. I don't trust them however, to do so without giving any reasons for why those decisions are to be taken. I trust them to hear a debate, listen to all sides, and THEN make a decision, and inform the people who started the debate on why that precise decision was taken. I neither wish an angry mob of 80+ members to haggle over every petty detail, nor with to give unlimited decision-making power to three people, no matter how capable they are, and I am not questioning BigFree's capabilities as a consul or as a civ player at all, merely the attitude he took when faced with last-minute discussion, which I felt was quite in place.

Furtheremore, I have looked into the turn thread and found this:

quote: Economy: the desision to rush these 2 should be made towards the end of the turn (the possible GA might effect the need for it). Please reserve the gold for these 2. Rush Cat in Cuido for 20 Gold? Rush Granary in Lux for 20 Gold? TBD by MOI

A decision was made, and no debate was given. Since this decision was to be made at the end of the turn, it would have been appropriate to discuss and then decide. Nothing apparently was written in stone at this point.

Also note the words "possible GA". Again, where was it decided that a GA was to be forcefully triggered?

Another example:

quote: WF: these orders are for a Non-GA end of turn. Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-12-13-16-18. Change WF to 3-4-8-12-13-18. Mingapolco - starting WF 4-8-9-10-15. NC. Bananatopia - starting WF 2-4-5-6-8-16-19 (working game). NC. Incensity - starting WF 5-6-7-17. NC. Tripoli - starting WF 2-7-17-18. NC. Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC. Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 1-19. NC. ??rush Catapult for 20 gold??

WF orders given for a Non-GA end of turn. And question marks over the Catapult rush.

Sorry, but I see no evidence of there having ever been any concrete decisions over these two things that I am so virulently b*tching about. Because of this, a proper discussion of the two was in place in the turnchat but never occurred since "these things were already decided". If not in the official turnthread, where?

	28-09-2003 13:26									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Togas and it bothers me to see this thread started and so much work put into an argument

If there is a real argument, between any people and about any subject, I think it's generally a good idea to start a thread about it and discuss the matter, as long as the thread remains a "friendly" one (which it does until now).

Yes, we put some work into arguments, but a tense situation between two very active and respected members that could otherwise bring more work, anger and even hate could be solved here.

I've learned in my professional career that it's a good thing to get the air cleared of those kind of personal feelings.

Whoever is right.

	28-09-2003 16:24									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I wasn't in the chat, so maybe my information is uncomplete, but here are my two cents about this:

The consuls have been elected to rule Apolyton. When there is some conflict they are the ones who have the ultimate word about what is done or not done. Otherwise, nothing would ever be done. I honestly think that we must respect the consuls. They are dedicating a lot of their time to play on behalf of everyone.

Of course, this doesn't give them the right to do anything they want, but if you think that a consul is going beyond the power that the constitution gives him there is a way of removing him from the power. If you disagree with the consul propose a CoC instead of yelling at everyone.

It's not fair to decide what will be done or not done only in the turnchat. This renders the forums completely useless. Consuls and ministers expose their plans here in the forum, and we the people have plenty of time to voice our agreements/disagreements. If something unexpected happens during the turn then the people there have the advantage that they can voice their opinions, but about things that have been previously planned with so much time, previous plans should prevail.

And about the GA, even me who don't follow this forum very close was thinking that the GA would be triggered the first turn.

	28-09-2003 18:23									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

WHOA! Just a moment - I think it's time everyone heard a Consul's side of things. As far as reasons for having the GA on turn 1 go, I believe E_T has some extremely good ones for posting, and I'm not about to pre-empt him whilst he's busy! As far as what my feeling on the matter is with hindsight, it seems at a 6:2 attrition rate, we will not need the GA for units for some time during this war, if at all. Thus we should conserve it until it is needed.

However, that is beside the point here. Let me explain, if I can, a little of how I could have seen myself act very similarly to BF.

Playing the turn is always a bit of a stressful situation - the Consuls are the first to get the save, along with the Ministers and a few particular others, and it is only the Ministers + Consuls who really have a duty to open the save as soon as they can, and must do their damnedest to note everything in there. We have been extremely good at playing turns - if you check the thread at the UN you see that almost every time we have passed on the save within 4 hours of receiving it. We are keeping our counter well-stocked, and it is very unfortunate some teams cannot do this. There is always the pressure of time, constantly ticking by. Believe me, playing this is stressful with even 2 or 3 of us, some trusty Ministers and a few reliable posters.

Let us cut to about 16 hours ago: nye, the most experienced Consul by a long shot, is not here, nor will he be. The third Consul, MrWIA, is having Net problems and simply cannot be there to help out for an unknown amount of time. The time for the chat was posted in advance specifically so many could be there ( a courtesy that was NOT easy to sort out, let me tell you), and there is a narrow window of only a few hours of playing time that most can make it. This is an extremely important chat, and one which will require much discussion and improvisation of orders, at times. You do NOT want to f*** anything up. Fortunately the orders are all there to be followed, and you have the trusty Ministers for last minute changes (which will all be minor, disasters aside).

You have around 20 in chat, and sheer chaos in the main room. You are in the orders room trying to play the game to the stringent timeline whilst listening to both E_T and Trip for vital changes to orders, with additions from Dom and a few others, as well as keeping an eye on the main room. This is the environment in which you find yourself.

Everything that you, the Ministers, other Consuls and Ambassadors have done over the last 20+ turns has been directed to the one end - the war with GCA, and total readiness for it: military, domestic and foreign. Military and foreign for obvious reasons, but domestic so we can make the best use of our GA to produce troops should we need them, or just things like Marketplaces so when the war is over, Poly can prosper. We have planned the war so that we would be ready in both fields. It is perfectly obvious we will go to war, trigger the GA turn 1 after weakening a unit with the Catapults that were built more or less specifically for this task. Hell, it is even posted in the MoW thread, that you have read over at least once or twice, skimming several other times. No-one has ever posted anything to the contrary.

In the midst of the stress of the turn, alone in charge in the environment already described, someone questions what has been assumed by you, the Consuls and even Ministers for the whole time. You dismiss it as a temporary misunderstanding of someone who is diligent themselves in the forum. They will soon realise this has always been the plan. But things are not that simple. The cries are reflected by others now, of these 20-odd special guests, and all of a sudden what you are trying to do for the team looks like it may fall apart.

Discussion? With that much chaos and really only you to try and control it? Several hours in, with some of the guests having to leave soon? You just want to get on with things as they have been planned in your mind and in your discussions for weeks - even months. Maybe you even feel threatened, amongst friends you did not expect such an addition concern. What do you do?

I know that I might very well have done the exact same thing.

I hope this gives you some indication of what being a Consul can be like at times - for me anyway, and I am certain BF and yes, maybe even nye feel this at times too.

My post was going to include some examples of threads where the GA timing was discussed - when I searched, I could find none on specific times beyond that one in the MoW thread (however, this in itself is IMO rather an important place!).

I am flabbergasted that something like this can have gone without many clear signposts. I certainly knew that the GA was for turn 1, when we were going to be ready for it. This was further confirmed for me when I learned that E_T had wf orders for the GA as well as without. I am further flabbergasted that so much can have been pointed in this direction without EVERYone realising what was happening. However, that is the bane of the forum DG - unless you make sure you read everything, you don't know everything that is going on.

So, what can we say? Clearly it is a concern that some did not know that the GA was aimed for turn 1 in all that the Consuls did. Thus we made a mistake. Trust me, we're sorry. Mistakes will be made - we certainly aren't perfect, as hard as we try. However, neither is anyone else.

I hope enough time has elapsed that cooler attitudes can recover, and everyone can realise we made a mistake, and we are both sorry and even more mindful of any future mistakes. We have learned our lesson, but I hope at the same time that everyone has learned one - this may be just a game, but there is a helluva lot of pressure on Consuls and Ministers - this ain't an easy job! You gotta keep everyone informed and happy, yet keep things moving at a cracking pace, and keep yourself updated on everything. The perfect Consul/Minister is one who has 12-16 hours free for the Net per day and just random viewing of every save, can be present for every session, logs and reads every chat, forgets nothing and has no life of any sort to distract them. You find this person and I will gladly CoC myself for them for the good of Apolyton.

Hmm.. somehow my post (that I was quite proud of), turned into an hour-long ramble. Apologies, but I hope I have not diluted my point in all this: what may be a game to most is quite a time-occupier for some of us, and can be stressful. Although most of the time we feel the team is happy with us, at times we can all feel rather underappreciated for our efforts. Don't get me wrong - we enjoy being Consuls and Ministers, but there is some work involved. So we just ask for a little understanding every now and again when times can get a little overwhelming

Cheers.

	28-09-2003 18:30									#20
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Thank You, MrWIA.

Running turnchats with 20-odd people can be very hectic and the executive running the chat is frequently in just such a position as you describe. You'd be one to know, having been an exec so many times

Fully agreed that this should have been openly discussed at some point and I thank you (at least for my part) for being a leader and agreeing that this was a mistake. To be fair, it was a mistake by ALL of us, but that's beside the point.

I just hope we can hold something of a semblance for discussion now on the merits of GA timing before the issue is decided for us.

Once again, thanks.

	28-09-2003 18:52									#21
	Put an end to popups!

MasterZen (and Apolyton), first off, I an sorry that we did not make it specifically clear that we would be getting (or trying to get) our GA via the offensive capabilities of the NM and doing it on our first turn. We HAVE not CLEARLY STATED, in one specific thread, that we were planning to possibly, purposely trigger our GA on the first turn of the war.

But We have made referances to it, in several posting, almost all of the way back to the AltSp.

Now, why do we want to trigger our GA??

1) predictability - so that we can say with certanty when the GA will start and when it will end. So that we can make adjustments with our builds and WorkForce assignments, to take full advantage of the GA. IF we get our GA triggered by an offensive counterattack, then we actually lose our first turn of optimized production. See chart A for this.

2) Oppertunity - Having GCA place units out on our border so that we can attack them without bing in cities gives us a better chance of making the GA happen at our convience. We might not have this kind of oppertunity again.

3) Expediancy - Having the GA from the start, will allow us to rapidly replace fallen units and have a larger cashflow to upgrade the remainer of the warriors (4 Vet & 1 elite = 5*60 = 300 Gold). This will give us the extra force to ensure our quickest victory (and allow us to go on with other things the soonest).

4) Timing - This again, allows us to take advantage of the extra trade to help combat War Weariness, give us cashflow for upgrades and allow us to try to complete Invention before the GA is done with. We are as prepared for the GA as we resonable can be.

Chart A - SPT with turn 121 WF settings IF the GA is Triggered between turns.

code:

No GA - Net SPT  Net TPT      Between Turn GA - Net SPT  Net TPT      Optimized WF if GA Triggered turn 121   Net SPT  Net TPT
Apolyton - WF 3-4-8-12-13-18.
          10       16                              16       23                    4-6-12-13-16-18                15       23    More Growth
Mingapolco - WF 4-8-9-10-15.
          10       13                              14       16                    1-5-8-9-15                     15       16
Bananatopia - WF 2-4-5-6-8-16-19 (working game).
          10       22                              18       29                    2-3-4-6-8-15-19                15       29
Incensity - WF 5-6-7-17.
           8       10                              13       15                    5-7-14-17                      11       15    More Growth
Nevermore - WF 7.
           1        2                               2        3                    7                               2        3
Tripoli - WF 2-7-17-18.
           8       10                              11       14                    7-17-18-19                      9       14    More Growth
Equilibrium - WF scientist.
           1        1                               1        1                    5                               1        2    More Growth
Cuildo de Alcohol - WF 1-19 -  Rushed the Catapult for 20 gold
           2        4                               3        5                    7-19                            5        8   Not needing to be rushed!!
Hispanica - WF 1-2-3-4.
           4        8                               8       12                    1-2-3-4                         8       12   Barracks will be finished!
Possumopolis - WF 7-14.
           4        7                               5        9                    7-10                            5        6
Karina - WF 4-19.
           4        5                               6        7                    11-12                           5        8    More Growth
LuxInvicta - WF 5-6-13 - Rush Granary for 20 gold
           4        8                               7       11                    2-6-13                          7       10    Not Needed to be Rushed!
Big Bend - WF 3.
           1        4                               1        5                    19                              1        5    More Growth
BigFurryCity - WF 6-7-19-20.
           8       12                              12       18                    6-7-8-20                       11       17    More Growth
Heart of Darkness - WF 3-10-11.
           3        6                               5        9                    3-10-11                         5        9

Last edited by E_T on 28-09-2003 at 22:27

	28-09-2003 20:44									#22
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Well, just as another viewpoint, I read this forum daily, participate in the chats, and I really had no solid idea we were going to try for the GA at that moment. There had been references to perhaps doing it, but I had seen no full discussions on it. For something as important as that, it really ought to have it's own thread, so that the proper debate can be entered. And though some have said "we've talked about it for 40 turns," who is the "we," and if that talk is spread over varying threads or in chats, it does no good for the team at large. Remember, there's no "WE" in "TEAM"

	28-09-2003 21:24									#23
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I admit that I am a lurker mostly here but I do read the forum daily as well although that was only my 2nd participation in a chat. I am greatly disurbed by the behaviour of some of the current leadership on the team.

In the chat, some were bossy and BigFree in particular was somewhat rude and he even left the open channel -so that people had to try to get the other ministers to attempt to send messages to him.

But I am also puzzled by why the heck do we have so many RP people in the leadership given the disasterous results of their team in the PTWDG1 game?

Could that be part of the problem? Given that they had a very authoritarian structure on their team? Has that view now warped the leadership structure in the ISDG?Personally I do not agree at all with Togas's view of the consuls being given "absolute authority" - they were given authority yes, but it is by no means absolute - they are ultimately responsible to the team.

The consuls, like any elected politicians, should keep both ears open for the public opinion on issues - and clearly from the current results of the "Do we go for a GA ourselves?" poll, they were clearly not aware or in agreement with public opinion on that issue.

The major issues - when and who to go war or make peace with, who to ally with, what wonders to build, when is our GA, what do we go with our GLs, what type of victory do we go for - are NOT solely the decisions of the consuls and ministers - they should go to the members for their opinions...

	28-09-2003 21:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt This is an extremely important chat, and one which will require much discussion and improvisation of orders, at times. You do NOT want to f*** anything up. Fortunately the orders are all there to be followed, and you have the trusty Ministers for last minute changes (which will all be minor, disasters aside).

This is the heart of the problem, if I understand you correctly. The Consuls and Ministers feel slightly overwhelmed with the number of people in chat and the momentousness of the turn, and so rely on orders as the default instead of consulting the people of Apolyton who just happen to all be in chat.

This sounds like the right thing to do (because it's simpler), but I believe that it is not. This is a participatory game, and if you've got a bunch of people in chat that believe that some decision or other is not the right one, it is better to chat it out right then and there instead of relying on what is in the turnthread.

I know official decisions should not always be made in a chat, but heck, when you've got 20 people in there it should be an opportunity, not a nuisance.

It seemed to me like very little time was left between the decisions appearing in blue, and their subsequent appearance in red (representing their implementation by BigFree). On big turns like this, we can afford to spend a little more than four hours with the turn and really think things through. What else are we saving our time for, if not occasions like this?


Dominae

	28-09-2003 21:59									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe But I am also puzzled by why the heck do we have so many RP people in the leadership given the disasterous results of their team in the PTWDG1 game? Could that be part of the problem?

Because I'm relatively sure that no-one really wants to dredge THIS back up out of the sewer, I strongly recommend that you read the following thread:

Comparisons of Diplomatic Style: RP vs. ISDG

It should be noted that while RP Team has largely had something of a centralized leadership structure throughout time, it has remained throughout time a team which has traditionally had A LOT of mass participation from not only the leader(s), but including the entire membership. RP internal politics have been, at the very least, QUITE active.

It would be a gross mischaracterization bordering on farce to refer to the internal RP political situation as overly "despotic". In fact, we noted at the time in which all civs were despotism that RP was likely one of the LESSER despotic teams due to the sheer number of people contributing at all levels of our civ's development. This despite the fact that we were ostensibly roleplaying a "despotic" civilization. The reality is that we were role-playing an anarchic civilization in which the despot could lose his throne at ANY given moment if a majority decided to oust him... kept him on his best behavior

Now that I'm done with that, I'll just recommend that those wishing to entertain this silly notion, please recall that just because someone was on a team in the PTWDG does not, of consequence, mean they intend to roleplay the same situation in the ISDG or that they have necessarily behaved that way in any other democracy game environment. To demonstrate this point, most of us were involved in the SPDG where we were leaders in a VERY democratic game and did perfectly fine within that context. MrWhereItsAt was President of the SPDG three times and has been a Consul here for months and there's hardly a person who would complain about his respect for democratic norms.

As for other inquiries on the subject, they've probably been amply discussed in the thread I've linked above.

My apologies for getting a little put off by this, but I think I have a right to be a bit offended for being labeled for something I'm rather clearly not. That said, I understand how if someone didn't have experiences with these individuals beyond the PTWDG, one might build their entire expectation of how those people would act based upon that experience... I can only imagine what some people must think of Master Zen or Beta

	28-09-2003 22:15									#26
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Oh, another issue... I mean no offense, but the team gifted with their own full sized continent without any competition the entire game has very little ground to stand on when it comes to criticizing other teams for being attacked by their neighbors... Being attacked by your neighbors generally requires that you have some in the first place.

Now, let's get back to being civilized and nice to one another... we're on the same team and we're all working toward the same goal in this game... the way it should be.

	28-09-2003 22:23									#27
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Wow!

But yes, in all honesty, many of us from RP held leadership positions in the SPDGs. I guess we all sort of formed a bond which brought us together as a team in the PTWDG.

Of course if you're going to be unfair by rating people, why not criticize everyone? I mean Lux is dead, so obviously we don't want Trip as our military leader right? :P (He's done an excellent job so far)

The games are completely different situations and I don't think it's completely fair to judge people/team members by their actions in another game, especially when they are doing a mostly *excellent* job in this game.

	28-09-2003 22:32									#28
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First of all great post MrWIA, I do agree with your overall sentiments regarding this matter but I beg to differ on some details:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt You have around 20 in chat, and sheer chaos in the main room. You are in the orders room trying to play the game to the stringent timeline whilst listening to both E_T and Trip for vital changes to orders, with additions from Dom and a few others, as well as keeping an eye on the main room. This is the environment in which you find yourself.

Yes, the environment was hectic, people were very anxious for the war and many people who have never or very seldom joined the chat, decided to do so now. However, why do you say you were trying to play the game to the strigen timeline? Are we to rush every turn just to get it done quickly? I for one would not mind staying up another 20-30 minutes, hell, even an hour or more as long as that time was spent discussing this that deserve to be discussed, espically things that I plainly showed in my last post that were meant to be discussed in the chat and not decided upon beforehand.

Secondly, we were told the main Apolyton room was for "discussion". If that is so, then why were we limited to simply hearing and accepting ever unilateral decision that the consuls took? Hell you guys could've just de-voiced everyone else and played the turn there with everyone forcefully quiet. If there was a discussion room it was meant for the consuls to listen to what was being said before they took decisions that have not yet been decided, that didn't happen and to make matters worse our consul barged out when he got sick of the uproar thus making it even more difficult for the others' opinions to be heard.

quote: Everything that you, the Ministers, other Consuls and Ambassadors have done over the last 20+ turns has been directed to the one end - the war with GCA, and total readiness for it: military, domestic and foreign. Military and foreign for obvious reasons, but domestic so we can make the best use of our GA to produce troops should we need them, or just things like Marketplaces so when the war is over, Poly can prosper. We have planned the war so that we would be ready in both fields. It is perfectly obvious we will go to war, trigger the GA turn 1 after weakening a unit with the Catapults that were built more or less specifically for this task. Hell, it is even posted in the MoW thread, that you have read over at least once or twice, skimming several other times. No-one has ever posted anything to the contrary.

There is nothing of the sort posted in the MoW thread, nor in the MoI thread just in case you made a typo. Since it is also not in the official turn thread, then where is this whole discussion and these big concrete decisions posted? Finally, the turnthread is supposed to have the final definitive things to be done or discussed or am I wrong? If nothing is said in the turnthread why am I to assume that it is wrong and (should something of the sort have been said in the others) the other threads are correct? In short, how is a poster supposed to really know what is going on when there is either incomplete or contradictory information among the official threads?

quote: My post was going to include some examples of threads where the GA timing was discussed - when I searched, I could find none on specific times beyond that one in the MoW thread (however, this in itself is IMO rather an important place!).

Because there was no discussion. Plain and simple. And there was no order for it to be done this turn. And I just looked very carefully at all the posts in the MoW thread and found nothing of the sort either. Anyhow, in the event that it WERE in the MoW thread. Why in the MoW thread yes, and in the turn thread no? How am I to assume which of the two threads is the more important? The excuse that "it was in the MoW thread but not in the turn thread" can easily be turned around and said "it was in the turn thread but not in the MoW thread" to have proved the exact opposite point.

	28-09-2003 22:37									#29
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I apologize if some were offended by some comments - but I was criticizing the RP team - not all of their individual members - who I will readily admit may and probably do play each game differently.

Still look at the poll for the GA so far - the leadership of this team who favored getting the GA by ourselves clearly weren't paying attention to what the rest of the members thought or wanted.

So what went wrong here?

	28-09-2003 22:39									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Sharpe But I am also puzzled by why the heck do we have so many RP people in the leadership given the disasterous results of their team in the PTWDG1 game?

I think they've learned

For all honestly, I don't look at the RPers here as RPers. They are Togas, BigFree, MrWIA, WB, Arnelos, etc., members of the Apolyton ISDG team. What happens in the PTWDG can be used for comparison and learning purposes, but it would be very unfair to suggest that here these guys would make the same mistakes.

I think all the RPers in leadership positions in this game have done a marvelous job, be it in the FAM or as Consuls. I am, as you can see, not complaining about BigFree's capacity for the job, merely an attitude I sensed yesterday as well as in a few other occasions in the past but which I made no fuss about. I truly hope this is not taken as a personal attack on him but as a criticism of behavior which I hope is not repeated by him or anyone else in a leadership position. Again, I'll repeat that I consdier BigFree one of my greatest friends in the ISDG and do not want to tarnish our friendship in any way because of this. But I felt I had to make this thread, had it been him, or anyone else, and accept the consecuences for sounding like a whiner, whatever they may be.