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Dominae
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 28-09-2003 09:21
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#1
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Do we trigger our GA on the attack, or wait for GCA to do it for us?
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Support Apolyton
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Pretty simple question, but a difficult answer, I think.
1. Triggering our GA ourselves (say, within the next turn or two) will solidify our superiority, and will ensure that our campaign against GCA ends as quickly as possible. It also helps the MoI make the best use of our GA-time production, since if GCA triggers our GA for us we will probably waste a few Shields in excess production (actually the problem is more complex than this - just consider that our Worker orders depend heavily on what our cities will be producing, and how quickly).
2. Letting GCA trigger our GA has the advantage that we will be doing it at the last possible minute. GCA is surely reticent to attack our Mercs, so we may actually go a bunch of turns without our GA, allowing us to make better use of it later on. As we all know from SP, the longer you wait for your GA, the better.
There is a counter-argument to this, though. Why always delay your GA? Well, because you want to have more pop, because the more tiles you work the more bonus Shields/Commerce you'll make use of. But currently our cities are not growing very fast. In fact, we're setting them up to max out in pop (by working Hills) in order to maximize production, and we're also still producing Workers. Without the promise of having a higher average population in, say, 10 turns, what's the point of delaying our GA? We're already in a Republic, and most of not all of our Laborers are working improved tiles. We are ready for our GA now.
The best counter-argument to triggering our GA next turn (say) is that we may very well be able to destroy GCA with the resources we currently have. Therefore our GA would be better served building improvements in our cities instead of military units (our Gold could go to research instead of upgrades, too).
What do you guys think? Let's get some discussion going, because we may have to decide on this next turn (assuming GCA does not trigger our GA for us on their turn).
Dominae
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Dominae
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I was not aware that we're planning to join Workers. That's good to know.
You missed (and were missed in) an interesting turnchat today, nye.
Dominae
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wervdon
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I voted delay with the understanding that this poll refers to the immediate future (2 or 3 turns). We definately need to remain fluid to the current situation and not be locked into decisions made by out of date polls while at war.
Reasons I voted delay:
1) A later GA can help against CFC if we decide to go that route, depending on what they do while we fight GCA we may need that help. For example, they sit back and watch us fight GCA, even take the opportunity to improve their relations with GCA and begin trading with them just to bog us down. Once the hard war is over, they have already atttained chilvary and decide its time for continental domination. Its not highly likely that they will be both that smart and that backstabbing, but if it did happen a later GA sure would be nice.
2) If GCA fears starting our GA and knows we don't have it yet, it might actually make them more reluctant to counter attack stacks defended by mercs.....that can only be an advantage to us. Personally, I doubt they will worry about it though, but if they don't then this debate is pretty moot anyways.
3) A golden age after taking the new territory will help us consolidate it into our empire faster. Especially if we get a GL to get the FP with.
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Reasons to start it asap:
1) If we need to production bonus to actually win the war.
2) If we fear we are running out of good chances to start it.
Can't think of anymore actually.
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Dominae
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I'm not sure your GA would be "wasted" on military if we trigger it now:
1. GCA may prove to be a difficult foe.
2. We can switch production to Horsemen, for eventual upgrade to Knights then Cavalry. Do we really anticipate not going to war after GCA until Infantry/Artillery!?
The problem with #1 is that it may not be true. The problem with #2 is that if we stockpile useless military units now, we'll be losing Gold to upkeep and the absence of Marketplaces.
Dominae
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asleepathewheel
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listening too long to one song
Mar 2002
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
Will we be able to wipe GCA out before War Weariness sets in without using our GA?
I don't think so. |
Really? What difficulty level are we playing this game on? will it take us 20 turns where we don't lose any cities and lose a proportionately small amount to theirs? I think if it effects us at all, it will be minimal. Its not that long a march to BoP, especially if CFC is pushing the Western front. But its something to pay attention to, I concur.
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:31
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If anything, they are looking to be turtling. This is why I had wanted to trigger the GA on the first turn of the war. But that is now water that is under the bridge.....
The main question that we need to ask ourselves is this, do we want to win??
This will require us to trigger our GA on our own terms. Because of resent events, this will likely occure towards the end of our conflict with GCA.
As many of you have already seen (and some still haven't yet) we have to deal with a possible powerhouse on the other contentent. We have discussed this at length in chat today, after we had gotten the map from GCN. IF we want to have a chance of even possibly winning this game we will have to ask ourselves some very hard questions and make several very painful sacrifices to obtain a possible victory:
1) this is actually without question, we will need to REX like we have never done before, if we want to have cities that are capable of taking on the other side. This will require them having been founded as early as possible. This will also possibley keep us from building a GW from scratch, atleast for a time.
2) We will have to limit ourselves, when it comes to a possible GA, to first building the FP and then moving the Palace. After then, we will have to look at what will benifit us the best, which will likely be saving our GL for one of the middle to later GW's.
3) We will have to take into serious discussion, as to if we want to have CFC remain alive or not. Part of the above (i.e. being capable of competing) would require us to take CFC's lands for our own. Is now the time? Can we do it with MI'a against Pikes? Do we want to do that? We are negotiating a NAP with them now, do we want to violate 2 NAPs?
4) start planning to build up this contenent as if we had just started here, but know the whole thing, so that we can optimize the whole thing and beyond. Dom was talking about the UP (Ultimate Power) approach, but I'm not entirely certain that we can accomplish this. This is something that he really need to plan for, starting now.
5) And lastly, as I can't think of anything else to say along this line at this time, but that we need to support the desisions that the Consuls and Ministers make, even if they come up in chat. Yes, alot of work is done in chat and I urge everyone to try to lurk there as much as you can. We (the Consuls and Ministers) try to bring thing to the forums for discussions and Informing the regular citizen, but we have too little time as it is to try to bring every chat discussion topic to this forum, unless we have help. I would like to see a position, maybe have it instituted in the con, to monitor chats and to help the Consuls/Ministers with bringing topics that we had discussed in chat to the forums. A form of chat secratary, who will sift through chatlogs to find things that haven't been discussed in the forums, but have been touched on in chat. Also, as had happened in this last warchat, we had dissention and we have ridden it out. But Until we have something like this set up, then if we have a situation that we think is the best and it goes against the rest of the chatroom population, at that point of time, while the turn is being played, DO NOT BE SURPRISED if we don't quite follow that the current wishes are. IT may happen, but we will try to prevent it from happening. We need to keep the public as informed as possible as to what we have been thinking and planning and this is the best way that I can think of the make sure that this happens.
But If anything, we need to (again) look at if we are going to work at winning this game
MoI E_T
P.S. There was going to be something about Naval Planning and looking at what we can do to prevent them from getting the upper hand.
E_T
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Dominae
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My reference to UP was only to describe what would be the best possible way to set up our two cores if we had world enough and time. Obviously we're not playing against the AI here, so UP is certainly not possible. Given this, we must place our capitals with shorter-term goals in mind rather than eventual empire-wide perfection.
Dominae
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wervdon
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Turtling won't make it that much harder to get a golden age, we still have to attack their units, and before the last cities fall there will still be at least a few cases where swords/spears are showing at 1 hp in a city and we have to attack them with something.
I'd say that also GCA will counter-attack us when we move next to their cities (they'd be stupid not to with swords in the city), but that may or may not trigger our GA if they are indeed replaying the save for optimal results (having your unit killed attacking a merc that trigers a GA isn't exactly optimal). However, if we keep every stack covered by a merc they will either eventually have to trigger the GA or resign themselves never to counter-attacking.
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