30-09-2003 02:28									#61
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if i was whoever she was going to run off w/ I would have killed the father. course there's the whole jail thing. but i would have definitely wanted to.

	30-09-2003 02:32									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Verres I cant believe that question even needs asking!

its a biting criticism of relativists. its not so much that they think its morally right. but that possibly their intellectualized views on morality make it hard for them to say its wrong.

	30-09-2003 02:36									#63
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quote: I am just looking at the way I saw kids in Britain and France. I don't know how it is in the US.

Not the same, apparently.

	30-09-2003 02:39									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Verres I cant believe that question even needs asking!

You'd think so, wouldn't you? Truth is, moral relativists throw away not only the moral rules ( morality as in a customary code of behavior in societies, not based on logical conclusions ) but also the ethical ones (based on logical conclusions in philosophy). according to this theory, you can't judge any action made by anyone. Planting flowers in the garden, and masterminding a genocidal warmachine the goals of which will be to enslave the human race, have equal ethical value: ZERO.

You can't judge a person's actions, if his actions are part of the customary code he's accustomed to.


Elijah, I am once again terribly sorry that my anti moral relativist posts seem to target you. Otherwise, I hold you in great respect, and as generally, an interesting poster. It's just you're the one that most often defends that p.o.v. .

	30-09-2003 02:48									#65
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So in other words, Azazel -- those people are fvcked up??

	30-09-2003 02:53									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Link please? I'd be very suprised to hear a Christian honour killing, since honour from a Christian worldview, is always less valuable than a person's life.

Obviously you've never dealt with Beirut Christians.

	30-09-2003 02:55									#67
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You do have a point there, MtG. Some of those are hard core mfers.

	30-09-2003 03:06									#68
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quote: Originally posted by SnowFire How is it "moral" to worry about the innocence or guilt of a capital defendant, while not concerning yourself equally with the guilt or innocence of a non-capital defendant nevertheless sentenced to die behind bars, just a bit more slowly? I happen to be in favor of the death penalty in rare situations, but this is a specious argument. If you're worried about innocence/guilt, then putting somebody in prison for life gives more time to make sure that was the correct decision. If somebody confesses to the crime a year after somebody was executed for it, all the State can say is "Oops." If they put them in jail for life, they would at least be able to give them the rest of their life back. Now, if the truth is found out a hundred years later? Sure, they were both death sentences. But the "ten years later" case is more relevant for what people are worried about.

Actually, it's not a specious argument if you come to accept that those B&W Perry Mason reruns don't reflect the realities of the American criminal justice system. How many provable confessions (not just attention starved nutbags) have come out to exonerate an already executed capital convict in say, the last 50 years? How many provable confessions have exonerated life, term to life, or LWOP convicts in a similar period?

The simple fact is that LWOP convicts have no mandatory appeal rights in almost all (maybe all) states, and without lawyers, clerks and investigators taking apart a case file and trying to work it for years, "new evidence" adequate to convince an appellate court to vacate and order a new trial just doesn't come out of the woodwork. DNA testing is expensive, investigators are expensive, and if you're not about to fry, you don't get the attention.

The simple fact is that the vast majority of LWOP convicts just disappear into the maw of the prison system and are then essentially forgotten by the legal system. Presumably, serious prosecutorial error (and/or misfeasance or malfeasance by prosecutors, police, or witnesses) are at least as common in these cases than they are in capital cases, or more so (one would hazard a guess that prosecutors try a bit harder in capital cases, and/or they select favorable cases for capital prosecution due to the higher profile of a capital trial.)

	30-09-2003 03:07									#69
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quote: Beirut Christians.

MtG:

Well then, expand my limited experience.

Thanks again for helping me install my cd-rom drive.

	30-09-2003 03:10									#70
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This is why I hate religion, ALL religion.

	30-09-2003 03:17									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel that's not the way to do it. what you should write is code: * Azazel raises middle finger... moderators have it pixelated and a bit more on-topic, though I understand your uncomfort, I have no other choice but to remind you that your point of view is because in the belief system of their culture, this is acceptable, that action cannot be judged. come on, you're a moral relativist, aren't you? The father was commiting something customary to his culture. Why all of a sudden you consider it a bad thing? you can get frustrated and upset all you want, this is the truth, and if you have any consistency, you should demand that this man would be set free.

Has it occured to you that it is because morality is relative that one can find this immoral, when the man who did it (and others from the same school of thought) obviously do not?

	30-09-2003 03:17									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi MtG: Well then, expand my limited experience. Thanks again for helping me install my cd-rom drive.

Prior to the real FUBAR in the early 80's, the 70's civil war in Beirut had nominally Roman Catholic, Maronite, and Orthodox factions fighting each other as well as everyone else. As with early Japanese Christians (Sengoku jidai or warring states era), "Christianity" was always adapted a bit to serve one's cultural mores. Vengeance killings, and even large scale terror attacks by one "Christian" group against another at church during Sunday mass occurred, and "fraternization" between Christians of different sects was extremely dangerous for those involved.

	30-09-2003 03:19									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld Has it occured to you that it is because morality is relative that one can find this immoral, when the man who did it (and others from the same school of thought) obviously do not?

This leads to a bit of a semantic problem. Is it morality itself which is relative, or is it certain people's self-serving claims of moral justification?

	30-09-2003 03:22									#74
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Is it morality itself which is relative, or is it certain people's self-serving claims of moral justification?

One and the same. Morality isn't some sort of supernatural entity that judges us, it's just our own person views on different matters.

	30-09-2003 03:23									#75
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quote: "Christianity" was always adapted a bit to serve one's cultural mores.

Syncretisation? Always a problem with any religion, particularly one like Christianity open to all cultures.

I think these folks are more Lebanese than any kind of Christians. Sad that they would value honour over a person's life. Especially sad that the individual groups would fight amongst themselves rather than working together.

	30-09-2003 03:26									#76
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quote: Morality isn't some sort of supernatural entity that judges us, it's just our own person views on different matters.

So how then can you judge this man to be wrong, when he only a different view about shame than you do? What makes your beliefs more valid for him than his own?

	30-09-2003 03:28									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So how then can you judge this man to be wrong, when he only a different view about shame than you do? What makes your beliefs more valid for him than his own?

Nothing does, which is why I wouldn't expect him to agree with me.

	30-09-2003 03:33									#78
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So then you agree that this man was perfectly right to cut the throat of his daughter because of his beliefs?

	30-09-2003 03:39									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi So then you agree that this man was perfectly right to cut the throat of his daughter because of his beliefs?

He thought so, yes. Morality on it's own justifies nothing outside personal experience and opinion, unless you manage to appeal to other people's morality. Good luck geting a unaminous vote on that, though.

	30-09-2003 03:59									#80
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Put him in a cell block largely populated by Jews! When he protests put him in a cell block populated by ham eaters. When he protests yet again put him in with the shower time gang. If he protests that put him back in with the Jews.

By this time there will be major protests by muslims throughout Britain. Round up all those not yet naturalized and deport them back to their home countries. Put the ones already naturalized in prison, preferably in cell blocks populated by Jews! You can guess the rest of the routine.

	30-09-2003 05:30									#81
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quote: "Would that have prevented the crime?" Possibly not.

Nope. As said, the guy wants death. He'd be a martyr.

	30-09-2003 06:46									#82
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quote: So how then can you judge this man to be wrong, when he only a different view about shame than you do? What makes your beliefs more valid for him than his own?

'Cuz they're mine.

	30-09-2003 06:49									#83
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quote: The extremism of the Muslim faith is appalling. (Or is it only a sect that is extreme?) Since I support "freedom of religion," I would be hesitant to ban Islam. But short of that, what can we do about it?

Yes Ned, all Moslems have the same beliefs as this guy.

	30-09-2003 08:20									#84
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I would support the DP, if we went back to 1600 practices..make the execution dran out and horrifically painful, then make the public watch..have school kids there specially.

	30-09-2003 09:40									#85
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Is there a good reason for cutting a teenage daughter's throat?

	30-09-2003 10:17									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel I am just looking at the way I saw kids in Britain and France. I don't know how it is in the US.

AFAIK America is the only country (maybe Canada as well) where newly arrived immgrants can become nationalized very quickly. FE, arabs in Britain aren't Brits, they're arabs living in Britain. In America, those same people, once they've passed all the necessary legalities, are americans. They're labeled arab-americans, to be sure, but to the mindset of all but extremists they're american 1st and arab second. The same for koreans, jews, italians, africans, mexicans, etc.

The point being second generation immigrants walk, talk, think, and look like everybody else, and are accepted into society as equals (again, except for nutcases). Our class structure is also a bit more fluid than most nations.

So not only is it seductive, but fairly easy to gain access to. For all the things I can ***** about going wrong here, I'd say that this is one of America's biggest strengths.

	30-09-2003 10:24									#87
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quote: I'd be very suprised to hear a Christian honour killing, since honour from a Christian worldview, is always less valuable than a person's life.

Well, in modern times, the Beirut situation as MtG pointed out, and also the small series of incidents in Ireland that you may have heard of in passing

Think there are very few, or no, murders committed by Christians in the name of honor? Go back a few hundred years and you can ****ing forget about it

	30-09-2003 13:56									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Is there a good reason for cutting a teenage daughter's throat?

Is there any good reason for not reading as far as the second post of a long thread before replying?

	30-09-2003 14:14									#89
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cheeky darkie

	30-09-2003 17:59									#90
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Three points

1)Even by accepted Islamic law , a person has to be tried in (Islamic) court to be punished , not summarily executed .

2)If you cannot realise that your children will behave as the country to which they have become accustomed asks them to , than you are not fit to raise said children . He should have known this would happen .

3)This is not an issue of juat religion , ethics , or beliefs . Thius is also a question of the law . You have acted against the law , full well knowing the consequences . Thus , the law is perfectly justified in treating you as it so decrees . Irrespective of his own beliefs , he knows what will happen if he does this . Therefore , there is no need to spare him any leeway on account of his background . He should know the legal punishment for such acts .

This is one of the reasons why I support the death penalty . Your beliefs are irrelevant to the law . If you so wish , you can move to a nation where there is either lawlessness (for you to do something like this) , or you can live in a nation where the law is symp[athetic to you and your beliefs . If this is not acceptable , then obey the law of the country which you choose to reside in , even if grudgingly .