30-09-2003 20:13									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I think these folks are more Lebanese than any kind of Christians. Sad that they would value honour over a person's life.

How would that make them different from the masses of European Christians over the past two thousand years?

	30-09-2003 20:26									#92
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Ned The extremism of the Muslim faith is appalling. (Or is it only a sect that is extreme?) Since I support "freedom of religion," I would be hesitant to ban Islam. But short of that, what can we do about it?

Regarding this as a religous issue misses the point. This is a case of a guy loosing his favourite punching bag and not being able to cope with life without that avenue to demonstrate his power over others.

It happens a lot; usually with people killing their wives/partners. The difference is that his cultural background made him expect to keep control over his daughter until she married, something he could prevent indefinitely providing she only courted traditional Moslems.

Poor girl. The note is heartbreaking.

	30-09-2003 20:43									#93
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's to bad you Euros have outlawed the death penalty because this man surely deserves to die. I am also saddened that you let the assessory to this murder, the mother/wife, walk away Scot free. She watched the whole thing, from the beatings to her daughter's murder, yet did nothing. If a person has it in her power to stop abuse or murder then she has a moral & legal obligation to do so. To not call the police, get a neighbor, or in any way intervene to save her daughter's life is despicable. This lady deserves to spend years in jail for it.

Last edited by Oerdin on 30-09-2003 at 21:11

	30-09-2003 20:49									#94
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

It wasn't just the mother Oerdin. From the article the police were suggesting that a substantial number of people were aware of what he was doing, but didn't do anything to stop it.

I don't agree with you about the death penalty, but whoever was involved in the conspiracy of silence is an accessory to murder in my eyes, and should be treated as such.

	30-09-2003 21:45									#95
	Got spare money?

He did try to kill himself after he did it (slit his throat, and jumped from the 3rd story of his building), and again when he got out of hospital. The guy obviously want to die, so why grant him the satisfaction. He did rty to blame Al-Qaeda at first for the killing :boggle:

The whole concept of honour killings is so foreign to me I can't even imagine how his thought processes must've worked.

The culture of silence thing is because in certain communities these things are seen as necessary, and squealing on a community member to the police would prolly get yourself killed whilst you're at it.

	30-09-2003 21:49									#96
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Is there any good reason for not reading as far as the second post of a long thread before replying?

Sure... I'm lazy...

	30-09-2003 22:00									#97
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Has it occured to you that it is because morality is relative that one can find this immoral, when the man who did it (and others from the same school of thought) obviously do not?

It occured to me. But why would the moral relativist condemn the man's actions, since he obviously believed in it?

	30-09-2003 22:03									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Has it occured to you that it is because morality is relative that one can find this immoral, when the man who did it (and others from the same school of thought) obviously do not?

If the action, then, isn't actually WRONG, then why do you support laws against murder?

	30-09-2003 22:09									#99
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We've already covered this.

quote: Originally posted by Osweld Morality on it's own justifies nothing outside personal experience and opinion, unless you manage to appeal to other people's morality. Good luck geting a unaminous vote on that, though.

	30-09-2003 22:12									#100
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

And just to make my self absolutely clear, it is because morality is relative that I can disagree with someones morals.

And that is what morality is all about, judging people and their actions - I can disagree with his actions and view them as wrong, because I do not have the same morals as him.

	30-09-2003 22:14									#101
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Morality on it's own justifies nothing outside personal experience and opinion, unless you manage to appeal to other people's morality. Good luck geting a unaminous vote on that, though.

You aren't one of those people who believes in laws against murder because murder disrupts society, not because murder is wrong, are you?

	30-09-2003 22:17									#102
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Osweld: yes, but this is where morals and ethics differ. Ethics aren't personal.

	30-09-2003 22:20									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You aren't one of those people who believes in laws against murder because murder disrupts society, not because murder is wrong, are you?

That's why murder is wrong.

	30-09-2003 22:21									#104
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Let's go over this again. It's people's morality that determines how they see an action.

A murderer can see killing someone as a perfectly fine thing to do, but the people around him do not neccisarily agree with that and it is their morals that will determine how they react to him- If they feel he is wrong, they'll act negatively towards him. That is what the law is supposed to do - uphold it's society's moral values. Which is why the law in this man's native home probably would not punish him.

	30-09-2003 22:23									#105
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Osweld: yes, but this is where morals and ethics differ. Ethics aren't personal.

Morals, ethics, same thing. Everything's relative.

You might like to think that your ethics are the universal law, but that's just delusion. If ethics and morality where not relative, there would never be debate on wether something is ethical.

	30-09-2003 22:23									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: That's why murder is wrong.

Oh I see. So if you find a way to commit a murder, without anyone else noticing, then you've done nothing wrong. Right?

So basically you're simply saying that murder is only wrong if other people know about it. If you kill a bum in the woods somewhere, no big deal.

Osweld,

How can a society have morals? A society is nothing more than a collection of people. If a society has morals, then you are saying that morality ISN'T relative, it is absolute, and is based upon what most individuals think.

	30-09-2003 22:28									#107
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Osweld, How can a society have morals? A society is nothing more than a collection of people. If a society has morals, then you are saying that morality ISN'T relative, it is absolute, and is based upon what most individuals think.

A society doesn't have morals per say, you are just taking what I said more litteraly then I ment. The law is just a close aproximation, or a compromise, on the different people's morals which it covers. It's never absolute, and never will everyone agree on all the laws in their society. (Unless it's a very small society of like minded people, if you want to get semantic. )


EDIT: And remember, the law varies from place to place.

	30-09-2003 22:28									#108
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Dead people don't care that they were murdered.

	30-09-2003 22:37									#109
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So there is nothing wrong with killing homeless people, and throwing them into barrels of acid?

quote: Morals, ethics, same thing. Everything's relative. You might like to think that your ethics are the universal law, but that's just delusion. If ethics and morality where not relative, there would never be debate on wether something is ethical.

Not so.
I am not speaking of any law, but I certainly do think that a person can reach philosophical conclusions on that topic. Yes, they do come after we position some axioms, but that holds for any 'hard' science as well.

	30-09-2003 22:38									#110
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Osweld,

quote: The law is just a close aproximation, or a compromise, on the different people's morals which it covers.

If the law is a close aproximation of people's morals, then why not just pass laws that say murder is only wrong if you think it is. That covers everyone pretty well, doesn't it?

quote: It's never absolute, and never will everyone agree on all the laws in their society.

Oh, OK, so then "the law" is just the attempt of the person or persons in power to enforce their morality, which doesn't actually apply to anyone but themselves, over the people who aren't in power and might happen to have different, but equally irrelevant, morality.

Right?

chegitz,

quote: Dead people don't care that they were murdered.

No, but up to the point where they cease to be alive, I'm sure that they object strenuously.

	30-09-2003 22:55									#111
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Osweld, If the law is a close aproximation of people's morals, then why not just pass laws that say murder is only wrong if you think it is. That covers everyone pretty well, doesn't it?

Because that's just a way of saying there is no law. Wouldn't make much sense as a law, would it?

quote: Oh, OK, so then "the law" is just the attempt of the person or persons in power to enforce their morality, which doesn't actually apply to anyone but themselves, over the people who aren't in power and might happen to have different, but equally irrelevant, morality. Right?

Sure, if that's how you want to put it.

	30-09-2003 22:58									#112
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Not so. I am not speaking of any law, but I certainly do think that a person can reach philosophical conclusions on that topic. Yes, they do come after we position some axioms, but that holds for any 'hard' science as well.

And just because you think everything can be broken down into some sort of 'logical equation', doesn't mean that everyone does. Doesn't mean that they'd all do the same math, either.

	30-09-2003 23:15									#113
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Not so. I am not speaking of any law, but I certainly do think that a person can reach philosophical conclusions on that topic. Yes, they do come after we position some axioms, but that holds for any 'hard' science as well.

"My eyes work properly" is a totally different sort of axiom from, say, "freedom is good." The former axiom can be reached by the scientific method (my previous experience makes the statement more likely than its converse), while the latter cannot.

	30-09-2003 23:22									#114
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ahem, Ramo, this is not the sort of axiom I was speaking about. I was speaking about the more basic axioms.

	30-09-2003 23:23									#115
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

What's more basic than that?

Whether or not one's senses form a good approximation of reality is pretty much the fundamental axiom of science (if you can't trust your observations, you can forget about everything else), and "freedom is good" is the fundamental axiom of my moral system.

Last edited by Ramo on 30-09-2003 at 23:31

	30-09-2003 23:35									#116
	Tired of ads?

quote: What's more basic than that?

Freedom is good is the fundamental axiom of your moral system? that's why your moral system doesn't make sense. You could base an ethical philosophy on an axiom about a certain feeling, but such a complicated concept as 'freedom'?

	30-09-2003 23:38									#117
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Why? And what makes freedom so much more complicated than anything else (seems pretty simple to me, lack of constraint)? You're a utilitarian, right? How is happiness a better basis than freedom (it seems to me, happiness is a much more complex concept)?

	30-09-2003 23:41									#118
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

because freedom is a concept, and a rather complicated one. feeling, like sight, is hardwired to the human experience.

	30-09-2003 23:44									#119
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

That's not a justification. Why does being "hardwired to the human experience" make for a better basis?

And happiness I think is much more complicated a concpet than freedom.

	30-09-2003 23:51									#120
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd If you kill a bum in the woods somewhere, no big deal.

Might makes right, nothing is wrong if you can get away with it. Society prohibits murder because no one wants to be murdered and we couldn't function very wel if we had to prepare to defend ourselves against murder all the time. Thus its in all our interests to prevent the murder of others.

Furthermore, someone who is willing to murder somone just cause they can, is a danger to everyone. If some guy is willing to kill a prostitute for kicks, what's to say he'll stop with prostitutes (from personal epxerience, I know of one person who didn't). Therefore we defend even criminals in order to defend ourselves and society.

Finally, even lumpens have family. Homeless people are sons and daughters and brothers and sisters and mothers and fathers. Just because that person is homeless doesn't mean there aren't productive members of society who don't care about them and would be affected by their murders. And even the homeless have a society, of sorts.