01-10-2003 11:14									#1
	Turn 123 - 110 BC - Turn 3 of the War Suffering from ads?

To be edited only by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Invention (34) 1 scientist.
-71 gold +39 gpt
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux

Urgent questions & tasks
- Trade agreement written up with CFC. Done?
- Plans for continuing the war - how best to proceed?
- Do we give CFC contact with CGN?
- What should our new unit build proportions be?
- Safe passage for Po in WT's sealanes. Same treaty as with CGN?

Unit Movement & Actions:

Unit Roster

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

See orders in post below.

Economy:
Apolyton - Building Horseman (turn 3 of 3).
Mingapolco - Building Horseman (turn 3 of 3).
Bananatopia - Building Horseman (turn 3 of 3). Change build to Mid Inf (turn 3 of 4).
Incensity - Building Med Inf (turn 3 of 5). Change build to Horseman (turn 3 of 3).
Nevermore - Building Worker (turn 3 of 10).
Tripoli - Building Barracks (2 turns left).
Equilibrium - Building Walls (turn 18 of 20).
Cuildo de Alcohol - Building Settler (turn 2 of 10).
Hispanica - Barracks built, start building Num Merc ().
Possumopolis - Building Cat (turn 4 of 5).
Karina - Building Cat (turn 2 of 10).
LuxInvicta - Building Settler (turn 2 of 7 schedualled).
Big Bend - Building Catapult (4 of 12 schedualled).
BigFurryCity - Building Horseman (turn 2 of 3)
Heart of Darkness - Building Cat (turn 4 of 6 shedualled).

WF:
Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-6-12-13-14. Change WF to 3-4-8-12-13-17.
Mingapolco - starting WF 2-8-9-11-15 (working game). Change WF to 2-8-9-10-11.
Bananatopia - (requires 28 gross trade to keep from Civil Disorder) starting WF 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-17. NC.
Incensity - starting WF 5-6-7-17. Change WF to 4-5-7-17.
Nevermore - starting WF 5. Change WF to 7..
Tripoli - starting WF 7-16-17-18. NC.
Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC.
Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 10-19. NC.
Hispanica - starting WF 1-2-3-4. NC. Set Govenor to Emphasize Production only. NOTE: Will grow next turn and have the mined hills as begining WF and first turn SPT.
Possumopolis - starting WF 7-14. NC.
Karina - starting WF 11. NC.
LuxInvicta - (Grows this turn) starting WF ??5??-8-9-14. change WF to 7-9-13-14 Note, we are evening out the sheilds and changing WF again next turn.
Big Bend - starting WF 1. Change WF to 19.
BigFurryCity - starting WF 5-6-7-8-19-20. NC.
Heart of Darkness - starting WF 10-11-13. NC.

Workers:
Reference: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
Gang of 3 (MrWIA, EVC & Dejon) - move 8 to Banana 6 (WF #3) and mine (done).
Dan & Gits - Road Big Bend 3 (WF #4) - done. next turn, they will move to BB4.
Frodo - move 4-7-8 and join Out of Darkenss at Possum 8 (WF #1). Will start to slear next turn.
Yo & rah - will take directions from the MoW
Lib & Slave Farb - Start to road (3 turns).
Worker at Ming 1 (needs a name) - start clearing (12 turns).
Monkee & CalcII - 2 turn left to clear.
Horse & Squid - 3 turns left to clear.
Mark & Otto - 4 turns left to clear.
Out of Darkness - 10 turns left to clear.
Yin - Move 7. He will move to the silks next turn.
Panag - move 3-3-3, he will join with Spike next turn to help clear Ming 1 (WF #6).


Diplomacy:
GCA: WAR
CFC: Gift WM.

Comment, please, many "plans" are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

The Turn

Last edited by E_T on 05-10-2003 at 01:32

	01-10-2003 11:25									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Please note all change in units in all Army Groups!

Unit Roster

AGA contains: 7 vet MIs (01 through 07), 3 vet NMs (06, 08, 10), 1 elite Warrior (06), 1 regular Warrior (02) (12 units). {Random Outpost 8-7}

AGB contains: 6 vet MIs (8, 11, 18 through 21), 2 vet NMs (10, 12), 5 Catapults (01 through 05) (13 units) {Random Outpost 8-7}

AGC contains: 1 elite MI (15), 2 vet MIs (13, 14), 1 vet NM (16), 1 regular NM (02), 1 Catapult (06) (6 units) {Scattered around the front}

Damaged units healing: M16, M17
War Casualties: M09, M10, N09, H01, H02, S01, S02

Non-War Orders

Worker Yo moves 2-2-2.
Worker Rah moves 2-2-2.

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moves 2-2-6 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB. {Over by GWT}
G02 Expedition [GCA Slave Worker] moves 9-9-9; heading home. {Near former Dun na Anarchy}

M12 BigFurryInfantry moves 4-7-4; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium (3-3-3-3-6 : three turns). {Cuido 8}

H02 vonHorseman moves 2-1-2-1-2-2; catching up with the rest of the army. {Mingapulco}

N01 MerZenary moves 2; watching out for barbs in the north. {way up north}
N04 Togas moves 4; looking out for barbs as the Workers make their way west. {Equilibrium 4-4}
N05 Enamel moves 3 and attacks barb Warrior; heading for barb camp in the southeast peninsula. {BB 3-3}
N13 ZargonX moves 2-2-2. {Cuido 8}
N14 Pikesfan moves 1-2-2. {Karina}
N15 Hungryopd moves 2-2-2. {Cuido 8}
N16 Sharpe moves 2-2-1 : added to AGC. {Nevermore 8}

War Orders

AGA moves 3. {Random Outpost 8-7}

AGB moves 3. {Random Outpost 8-7}

Newly formed AGC moves to IDG 4-7. It will be used to advance on IDG while AGA and AGB remain intact to head south against GCA. {Scattered around the front}

W12 WWNN moves 6 adjacent to IDG to see if there's anything there. It will be on the jungle tile which means if there are no units in the city GCA will either have to garrison the city, abandon it, or attack the Warrior and be trapped in the jungle tile to be killed the following turn.

C06 moves 2-2 and is added to AGC. {Nevermore}

M13 and M15 move 2-2 and are added to AGC. {Nevermore}
M16, M17 continue healing. {Nevermore}

All other units to remain as they are.

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

Last edited by Trip on 05-10-2003 at 00:27

	01-10-2003 18:29									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

One point so far - you have Expedition picking up both jagjef and Flash, yet it already has one unit (the slave worker) in it. This will not be an issue if, next turn, at elst one of our Swords is dead, but otherwise we have to decide to leave one behind or just disband the slave (a better option IMO).

	01-10-2003 18:58									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree! Jagjef the Great is worth more than a petty slave!

	01-10-2003 20:01									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Hagbart I agree! Jagjef the Great is worth more than a petty slave!

Unless it's a pretty slave...

	01-10-2003 22:24									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Unless it's a pretty slave...

nice

	02-10-2003 04:50									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt One point so far - you have Expedition picking up both jagjef and Flash, yet it already has one unit (the slave worker) in it. This will not be an issue if, next turn, at elst one of our Swords is dead, but otherwise we have to decide to leave one behind or just disband the slave (a better option IMO).

I am sure this will be done, but just remember to wake the slave up on the boat, and then disband him.

If you use up his movement to get back on shore, you are unable to reselect him and disband him

	02-10-2003 05:13									#8
	Remove this text

I updated my sim with the map provided by CGN, and I ran a few tests to see if I could emulate CGN's current empire.

Using "logical" WF assignment, I got values of GNP 132 and MFG 90. The GNP that I last recorded 2 turns ago was 138. We know that someone out there has Libraries, and it's no doubt CGN.

Their best city was Arhus, which raked in 15 SPT and a big wad of gold (I forget how much). They had three other 10 SPT cities, one at 9 SPT, another two at 6 SPT and the rest were 4 SPT or below. So with regards to major cities, we are actually somewhat superior to their industry (or we will be once Hispanica and Tripoli are ready).

However, now that they have Republic their GPT values will go up quite a bit, despite being very large and very corrupt. They will rake in ~70 or 75 GPT once the transition to Republic is finished, which is about what we'll be making during the GA. Thus during the GA we should use our superior industry to crank out the Libraries and Markets to catch our GNP up as we have a relatively better industrial core than they do.

Of course, this is all assuming that they don't finish their Forbidden Palace any time soon. Once they do that, they gain a huge increase in GPT and SPT. We should hopefully be almost done with our new core and FP by that point... If not, we'll be left far behind.

One thing they do definitely have a large advantage over us in is food... many cities they can easily garner a +5 or even more bonus. Let's be thankful they picked such a horribly loose city spacing so they won't be able to take advantage of all that food...

Last edited by Trip on 02-10-2003 at 05:19

	04-10-2003 02:27									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Save is with GCA. Assuming that GCA and CGN don't take a day with a save we may get the turn again tonight with a little luck.

	04-10-2003 07:40									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Save with CGN. Might be worth noting GCA took only 4 hours to play - which means they didn't have NEARLY as much to decide as after turn 1 of the war. Maybe they are committed to turtling completely.

	04-10-2003 09:28									#11
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I should be availbe if CGN sends the save over tonight.

	04-10-2003 10:43									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Save is here, see the top post for the download link.

E_T

	04-10-2003 11:49									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

After talking the matter over with a few people in chat, tentative chat time is:

2000 GMT

Our Green hours extend to 2000 GMT, so it's a good time to start. I was just talking to MrWIA, for whom this is 9 a.m. on a Saturday and he may be a bit late, but the critical one we probably need there if possible Trip. If we can get all of the Consuls again, however, awesome.

2000 GMT is:

2300 EEST/IDT (11 p.m.) - Kiev, Istanbul, Tel Aviv
2200 CEST (10 p.m.) - Paris, Berlin, Rome
2100 BST (9 p.m.) - London
1600 EDT (4 p.m.) - New York, Washington, Toronto
1500 CDT/EST (3 p.m.) - Chicago, Dallas, Mexico City
1400 MDT (2 p.m.) - Denver, Alberta
1300 PDT/MST (1 p.m.) - Seattle, Los Angeles, Phoenix, Vancouver
0900 NZDT (9 a.m.) - Wellington
0600 JDT (6 a.m.) - Tokyo

That should cover everyone, I hope.

If we have to push back an hour, oh well.

Last edited by Arnelos on 04-10-2003 at 12:41

	04-10-2003 13:59									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Taking a look at the save I notice a few things.

GCA did not cut the road 4 of IDG. I think was a big mistake. Once we gain control of IDG (It could be size 2 next turn)or raze it, we can move AGC just that much faster to the front lines.

I do not think that GCA cut any of the roads North of IDG either, another mistake; but, they are limited in what they can do.

We lost 3 units to GCA:
1. jagjef the Swordsmen
2. Flash the Swordsmen
3. Nuclear Master the Horsemen

I did note that the Elite Horsemen that killed jagjef has an * next to his name! I'm hoping that was the one that produced the Army that we saw in the sreenshot that CFC showed us and not another one for GCA.

I'm hopeful that I can be on-line around the 2000 GMT tentative shedule. Seeing how late this turn came in, and how it is during our 'green' hours, it should not hurt us to wait till then to play it.

I will now go make suggestions the the "GCA War -Turn by Turn thread" as requested by Trip.

Please do not do anything with the units or workers in the turn unless specifically told to do so by a Consul. Thanks.

	04-10-2003 14:05									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Here's an image for those that can't download the save or load it up:

	04-10-2003 16:24									#16
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Do we know what units CGA got their other leaders from? CFC may not know (i.e. all there units in area may have been killed), just thought I would bring that up.

Moving all of our units onto the hill will make any counterattack by CGA difficult. Most likely they will abandon IDG and probably outpost as well. I am sure they realize that their ability to attack our stack will be better when we are on the flat terrian. Also, the main army will likely be gathered at Alagord. The question becomes how much damage can they inflict on that stack before we can attack Alagord. The counterattack will like occur while we are 1 square away, to keep from exposing their swords.

	04-10-2003 19:49									#17
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Damn. Why do all my units have to be killed?

	04-10-2003 19:56									#18
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, I won't be able to make the chat, as I'll be at the Library of Congress enjoying a cold, rainy October day Have fun storming the castle!

	04-10-2003 21:21									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Orders updated to reflect the turn situation.

As always, please look to the war thread for discussion.

	05-10-2003 00:59									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Strongly recommend that Bananatopia be changed from horse to settler. City is on ragged edge of rioting and based on comments elsewhere, we really want an attack settler pronto.

This needs to be done THIS TURN. The City has 20 shields in the box and produces 10. This is the fastest potential settler we have and gives the MoI needed WF flexibility.

	05-10-2003 03:30									#21
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Screens of Results:

Last edited by BigFree on 05-10-2003 at 04:46

	05-10-2003 04:24									#22
	Tired of ads?

LOG - TURN 123 (110 B.C.)

WAR ORDERS:

WhiteBandit the warrior (in AGA/AGB at RO 8-7) moves to RO 8. GCA 4/4 Sword and 3/5 Horse spoted at RO 9.
WWWN moved from IDG 6-4 to IDG 6. IDG is empty.
AGA/AGB (all 25 units) moved from RO 8-7 to RO 8.
MI Beta (in Nevermore) moves 4-1 to attack barb warrior and defeats it. Beta now 2/4.
AGC formed at IDG 4-7: Rhothaerill and Basher move 2-2 from Nevermore. Hack moves 2 from Nevermore 2. Sharpe moves 2-2-2 from Nevermore 8.
Enamel (at Big Bend 3-3) moves 3 to attack Barb and kills it. No hp loss for Enamel.
2 wounded MI in Nevermore heal

NON-WAR MILITARY ORDERS:

Worker Yo and Worker Ra move 2-2-2 (from Karina 1 to Nevermore)
AIS Princess of Apolyton moved 2-2-6 and Fort-All used with WhiteBandit
AIS Expedition moves 9-9-9 along GCA coast
BigFurryInfantry moves 4-7-4 (from Karina 1 to Possum 4)
Vonhorseman moves 2-1-2-1-2-2 (from Mingapulco to Nevermore 8)
MerZenary moves 2 (in far north)
Togas moves 4 (Equilibrium 4-4 to Equilibrium 4-4-4). Barb Horse spotted at Equil 4-4-4-4
ZargonX and Hungryopd move 2-2-2 (Karina 1 to Nevermore)
pikesfan moves 1-2-2 (Karina to Nevemore 8)
Warrior K upgrades to MI in Ming
renamed MI h (in Mingapulco) to "vondrack the Medieval Infantry"
renamed MI i (in Mingapulco) to "Aidun the Medieval Infantry"
renamed MI j (in Mingapulco) to "Makahlua the Medieval Infantry"
New christened vondrack, Aidun, and Makahlua move 2-1-2 (Mingapulco to Karina)
alva moves 7-8 (from Lux 6 to Ming 6) and forts

ECONOMY

Bananatopia changes from Horseman to MI (3 turns)
Incensity changes from MI to Horseman (1 turn)

WF PLACEMENTS:

Apolyton to 3-4-8-12-13-17
Mingapulco to 2-8-9-10-11
Incensity to 4-5-7-17
Nevermore to 7
Hispanica set governor to emphasize production only (this was already done)
LuxInvicta to 7-9-13-14
Big Bend to 19

WORKERS:

EVC, MrWIA, and dejon moved 8 (Tripoli 8 to Banana 6) and mine (done)
Dan and Gits build road (done) at Big Bend 3
Frodo moves 4-7-8 (from Karina 1 to Heart of Darkness 2)
Lib and Slave Farb start road at Equilibrium 4-7
Spike at Ming 1 starts clearing jungle
panag moves 3-3-3 (from Hispanica 8-7 to Hispanica 6)
Yin moves 7 (from Equil 4 to Equil 4-7)

FOREIGN AFFAIRS:

WM gifted to CFC

THINGS NOTICED:

E_T noticed that GCA has Literature. Looking back, he determined they got it in 170 B.c. (Turn 120)
GWT still not in contact with GCA
GWT need Dyes and Incense
CFC needs Dyes, Engineering, Contact with CGN
CGN needs Contact with GCA, Contact with CFC, Dyes, Incense

DISCUSSION:

There was heated discussion for the first full hour of the chat over two plans:

Trip: Send all of AGA/AGB to Random Outpost 8 and send WWWM to IDG 7
BigFree: Send 4 NMs, 2 MI, 1 Warrior of AGA/AGB to IDG 4, send the rest to RO 8

roadcage also suggested sending all of AGA/AGB to IDG 4 instead.

First, it was finally agreed to send a scout warrior from AGA/AGB to RO 8, which spotted a Veteran Swords and a wounded Elite Horse at RO 9.

Then debate continued for well over 30-40 minutes on what to do next. Aggie and myself were on the side of Trip. Without a third Consul present, we were unsure of how to proceed until Aggie and I dug into looking at the Con. We came to the conclusion that if the Consuls cannot agree to countermand a minister's orders, the minister's orders stand (given the wording of hte power of Consuls over Ministers in the Con).

BigFree then proposed for the matter to be decided by a quickpoll.

Quickpoll came out 7-3 in favor of Trip's plan and that was the one taken.

Other areas of discussion concerned WF placements in Incensity and Nevermore. BigFree wanted Nevermore to work on more food (WF #5 rather than #7), while E_T wants to prepare the city for abandonment. For Incensity, E_T wants the city to get some extra trade and plans to eventually increase pop slowly or with a worker joining. BigFree wanted the city to switch to more food income (by taking one of Poly's tiles and moving the Poly WF to another tile). Both issues were resolved with following E_T's advice.

FINAL NOTES:

Once most consistency issues were resolved between my version of the save and BigFree's, we were ready to send the file. Unfortunately, BigFree had moved AGC to the wrong location (IDG 7-8 rather than IDG 4-7), so the decision was made that my copy of the save must be e-mailed. However, we do not have an e-mail address for CFC because BigFree recently lost his hard drive and neither of the other permanent Consuls is present. I have posted to 1BC to request an e-mail for CFC, but if anyone has it, please give that to me. Thanks.

UPDATE:

notyoueither signed on and gave me the e-mail addy for CFC:

msdg@civfanantics.net
(cc to intersitepbem@mongoose201.com) <-- CC to GM

Thank You. Sending...

	05-10-2003 04:35									#23
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Superb report, Arnelos!

	05-10-2003 04:42									#24
	Put an end to popups!

So it looks like Dun na Anarchy will be rebuilt. Luckily no workers have moved to the iron, so will be quite a few turns until rehooked.

Wonder if something died (or a horse retreated) trying to take the sword on the mountain, I highly doubt that a horse could win without losing a single hp, even through reloading, and ending on the mountain would exhaust all move points. Interesting. Interesting that they would rebuild Dun rather than using the settler to pump up shield production in a core city.

edit: I'm an idiot, I just noticed that the horse onthe mountain did lose one hp. Nonetheless, losing one hp to a sword on a mountain? thats pretty good luck.

	05-10-2003 05:03									#25
	Remove this text

Please note that BF's latest screenshot is still incorrect on the placement of AGC. In the latest screenshot, it is at IDG 7-7. In the save sent, it is at IDG 4-7.

	05-10-2003 05:06									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel So it looks like Dun na Anarchy will be rebuilt. Luckily no workers have moved to the iron, so will be quite a few turns until rehooked. Wonder if something died (or a horse retreated) trying to take the sword on the mountain, I highly doubt that a horse could win without losing a single hp, even through reloading, and ending on the mountain would exhaust all move points. Interesting. Interesting that they would rebuild Dun rather than using the settler to pump up shield production in a core city. edit: I'm an idiot, I just noticed that the horse onthe mountain did lose one hp. Nonetheless, losing one hp to a sword on a mountain? thats pretty good luck.

It is a good spot for a city. Improvements already in place, the only spot where they could take advantage of the cattle due to their poor city placement.

We can only hope they lost at least one unit in attacking the Swords.

	05-10-2003 14:19									#27
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Why on earth Trip wanted the units on 4-7 of IDG instead of 7-7 I will never understand, especially since I don't remember him explaining it. At 7-7 they still reach IDG 4, where he said he wanted them to be able to reach. At 7-7, if GCA wanted to attack them, they would have to attack our units on a hill. At 4-7 of IDG, they are on open grassland, a little more exposed.

My thoughts are that GCA will only attack us where we have the least advantage. I also believe that RO will be disbanded next turn. If WWNN survives, which is likely, then IDG will also be disbanded.

What Arnelos forgot to mention is that the reason I wanted IDG 4 protected is to prevent GCA from pillaging that road on that tile and any other tiles North of it. As it stands now GCA can pillage away. We should have at least moved one unit to IDG 4. If GCA wanted to pillage that road, they would have to sacrafice two units to do it. One to kill our unit there (likely would have been WBF) and the second would be the unit that pillaged it. I do not think that splitting our AGA/B, by sending 2NM's and 4 MI's from it would have put it at any risk at all. It would have meant that 4 NM's 9 MI's 5 Cats would have been at RO8 on a hill. Not in much danger from GCA IMO. That group does not present itself as a target of opportunity. My reasoning for the entire matter is to preserve as many roads as possible. You never know when they could come in use for us down the line and I really don't think any of our units were in any more danger than they are now if they were to be moved as I suggested as both tiles (RO8 and IDG4) are hills. And Since RO will likely be disbanded, we didn't need to bring the full brunt of AGA/B to RO8. I think GCA will attempt to hold us at Algalord. They have invested heavily in that city. It has a lot of cultural value and likely has a Barracks as well as a Temple.


One note to ET: In the orders you mention another worker, besides the CDG slave, to build the colony on the silks near EQ. Why is that? Wouldn't it be better to sacrafice a worker who only works half as fast as our regulars than one of our own? Or do you think we are saving on unit upkeep? I would rather use the CDG slave to build the colony.

	05-10-2003 15:34									#28
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by BigFree What Arnelos forgot to mention...

I decided that it was better for you and Trip to make arguments in your own defense rather than me attempt to summarize them in my own words. Especially since I didn't end up agreeing with yours, I could count on you to provide a more passionate defense of its merits than I could probably count on myself providing

Thanks.

	05-10-2003 16:49									#29
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If you do not see the corrected screen shot, your browser needs to be refreshed while viewing that post.

	05-10-2003 17:51									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by BigFree If you do not see the corrected screen shot, your browser needs to be refreshed while viewing that post.

I see it. Thanks.