01-10-2003 02:33									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon I would respectfully suggest that perhaps attempting to pillage their iron and horses is wiser than throwing two swords at a town that could have any number of defenders.

The decision to attack wasn't really made by me.

	01-10-2003 02:36									#92
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Yeesh, I cross posted with both FP and Trip.

	01-10-2003 02:41									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Trip If we attack with both Swords this turn and don't take the city but take damage then GCA could kill our Swords before we have a chance to pillage. Permanent damage done = 0.

I too think we should not attack this turn, I just think if we do attack we should attack first then pillage. What if only a reg warrior is left in the city? Or what if only a conscript

edit - what I mean is attack with the first sword then pillage with the second in the same turn. Rather than pillaging than attacking in the same turn.

	01-10-2003 02:49									#94
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quote: Originally posted by OPD I too think we should not attack this turn, I just think if we do attack we should attack first then pillage. What if only a reg warrior is left in the city? Or what if only a conscript

Pillaging is still the first thing we should do with those two swords. I made the mistake of doing something like that in a game a few months ago (getting too anxious to take a capitol city and forgetting to pillage the iron around it). The AI made me pay by taking back the city the next turn and causing me another 15 turns of war because of the swords they were able to build. GCA is easily more intelligent than a computer AI. We can't let them have the ability to continue building swords.

	01-10-2003 02:55									#95
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cross edited your post \0/

	01-10-2003 02:58									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The decision to attack wasn't really made by me.

Then who did make that decision? I was under the impression that the direction of this war was your purview, not anyone else's.

	01-10-2003 03:00									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Then who did make that decision? I was under the impression that the direction of this war was your purview, not anyone else's.

BigFree and others in chat have recently become very fond of the idea.

The chances of there being 1 regular Spear and 2 Horses there are very high.

	01-10-2003 03:20									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Trip BigFree and others in chat have recently become very fond of the idea. The chances of there being 1 regular Spear and 2 Horses there are very high.

For what it matters, I'm strongly on YOUR side of this issue (and that doesn't happen every day ). We'll discuss it more when we gather for the chat, I assume.

	01-10-2003 03:24									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos For what it matters, I'm strongly on YOUR side of this issue (and that doesn't happen every day ). We'll discuss it more when we gather for the chat, I assume.

As am I. I think the risks outweigh the benefits in this situation. I won't be able to make the chat tonight (thought the chat was wednesday for some reason and it's my wife's birthday tonight) so if there are any last minute polls please count my vote against attacking the city this turn.

	01-10-2003 03:28									#100
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I agree, lets pillage not attack. There is a reason we have a military commander, lets listen to him.
Aggie

	01-10-2003 04:14									#101
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Agreed, no attack. Even if the sword survives, there's no healing out there in GCA territory.

	01-10-2003 05:05									#102
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I am one of those opposed to attacking at ALL, but if we ARE to attack (with my protestations), it is unimportant whether we attack first or not. But the attack MUST be with the Vet Sword, and the Reg Sword MUST pillage no matter the result of the attack. Reason: if we have a great chance to take the city (say there is only one weak unit left after the attack), we can still fail - losing both Swords or, at best, weakening our remaining Sword(s). If they then attack and kill them - we have done sh$t. If we take the city, we will still be pillaging the Iron anyway, and if we take the city before pillaging, there is a risk of them attacking with Horses and retaking it straight back, with the advantage of any gold we have left after rushing going partly to them.

Personally I would prefer these two to pillage and fortify, to be able to hang around and cause general havoc for GCA in their homeland. This is where they have their troops, are withdrawing their troops to and where they build new troops, so taking small cities is not worth it. If we can deny them resources and occupy some of their forces for some turns the Swords have done the greatest good.

Another idea someone (usnure who, sorry!) came up with was to load the Swords onto Expedition when they ahd done their pilalging/attacking and dump them on GCA's Horses nearby - if we are lucky we can deny them both Iron AND Horses.... If they reconnect the Iron they can upgrade Warriors, but denying them Horses gives them nothing to upgrade to Horsemen..

	01-10-2003 05:14									#103
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A political war is the last thing we need, and I seem to recall some assurances from at least one Consul before the war began saying that once the war DID begin, major decisions would be left "final say" in the hands of the MoW, so that we had one concentrated effort, rather than several disjointed ones.

Those units can potentially deprive GCA of *ALL* strategic assets, and we're proposing to waste them on a city that has *NO* real strategic value? What exactly is to be gained by taking Dun na Anarchy? Forcing them to expend units retaking it? Newflash: They won't bother! The fact that they haven't already burned it to the ground is a VERY good indication that the city can withstand our assault. So we have potentially two options:

1) Cut off GCA's iron with high probability (at least cutting it to one source, forcing the guarding of that source) and horses (further than the iron, but the confirmed ONLY source) with moderate probability - and forcing GCA to commit units to defend it or lose horsemen.

2) Attack a town which we have absolutely no information regarding the defenses and only hunches, which we would get absolutely no use from (tremendous corruption/ too small a force to launch another attack from that as a base) and might (but probably not) draw GCA units to retake (if they're stupid, which they haven't been particularly so far) which would then benefit us.....how?

Other than the possible-but-unlikely gain of a town we WOULD lose (hi, GCA's armies in CFC's lands are heading home now, and there IS a barracks between Dun Na Anarchy and the CFC front they'd use) what benefit do we gain from option 2?

Please let the MoW run his war, and don't meddle with foolish, unthought-through plans.

	01-10-2003 05:47									#104
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Well in defence of the idea to attack Anarchy (although I still prefer another idea!), since the Swords are next to it we can see the best defender they have there - a Reg Spear. This leads some to believe it may be the ONLY unit there. Further, taking the city would mean we raze it and deprive GCA of a production centre close to their core. This plan isn't poorly thought out at all - in fact several hours of chat have gone into it with multiple people.

I also would like to add that due to his RL stuff yesterday Trip was unavailable to revise his orders until recently, so those of us present decided to at least discuss the options. This is an option well worth considering, and we have done so in depth.

	01-10-2003 05:57									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon The fact that they haven't already burned it to the ground is a VERY good indication that the city can withstand our assault.

I was going to agree ... that the only reason why it is still standing is that they have at least 3 units in it, and know it cant be taken.

But then again, by disbanding the city, they will also lose their iron.
Perhaps they are gambling that our swords fail to take it ?


It's not a clear decision, but I think we should stick with the original plan of pillaging & fortifying.

	01-10-2003 06:12									#106
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Even if they don't disband the city they lose the iron... all we do is press 'p' and they're ironless...

	01-10-2003 06:45									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon A political war is the last thing we need, and I seem to recall some assurances from at least one Consul before the war began saying that once the war DID begin, major decisions would be left "final say" in the hands of the MoW, so that we had one concentrated effort, rather than several disjointed ones.

There should be no political war, however... Trip's plans must pass muster with the Consuls. That is how we are organised.

	01-10-2003 06:50									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Please let the MoW run his war, and don't meddle with foolish, unthought-through plans.

PS. Please let's not discourage the recent increase in participation. Some of those thoughts thrown out from people not heard from much can be useful.

That something is discussed is not a bad thing. We must all trust that the best thing will be done after discussion and opinions are heard.

	01-10-2003 06:52									#109
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither There should be no political war, however... Trip's plans must pass muster with the Consuls. That is how we are organised.

PPS. the Consuls' actions must pass muster with the people, or we/they will be replaced. That is also how we are organised.

	01-10-2003 06:58									#110
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The idea is to do both. We have two units. The Reg will pillage. The Vet will attack.

If there's only one unit there and we win against the Reg Spear, then the payoff is huge. If he loses or there's another unit there, we do not lose much.

If we pillage with the Reg then Fortify the Vet, we possibly buy ourselves two additional turns max with them without Iron. GCA will get that Iron re-connected. no doubts about it. Those Swords will not live long on that Mountain. GCA's Army is nearby, most likely near BoP by my calculations (and Trips).

Taking a small risk and trying to capture/raze that city will be huge if we pull it off. It gives them less units to produce for the war and less hiding spots for them to turtle to. it also demoralizes their team as we DO take something from them, in direct contradiction to what they wrote us in that rebuttal letter.

	01-10-2003 07:09									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Even if they don't disband the city they lose the iron... all we do is press 'p' and they're ironless...

I agree .. I was writing from the GCA perspective.


"We only have 1 spearman in this city.

If we disband the city, we lose our iron.

So maybe we gamble that those 2 swords will attack and fail.....we have nothing to lose other than 1 reg spearman."


So for us to assume the only reason the city is still standing is because it has 3 units or more could be wrong.

Not that you did ... just making the point.

	01-10-2003 07:19									#112
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree If we pillage with the Reg then Fortify the Vet, we possibly buy ourselves two additional turns max with them without Iron. GCA will get that Iron re-connected. no doubts about it. Those Swords will not live long on that Mountain. GCA's Army is nearby, most likely near BoP by my calculations (and Trips).

Agreed ... losing a city would be demoralising.


But also consider...

The city is lost and they no longer have iron.
Our sowrds die or leave
Then GCA can send in a lone worker on that mountain and create a colony, reconnecting the iron.

If the city remains, and we pillage the road.
The only way to reconnect the iron, is to rebuild a road...that could take longer.
(Edit - I am assuming workers cannot build colonies within your cultural border....is this still true ?)

So it may be better for us to leave the city.

	01-10-2003 07:38									#113
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Still another option for them is to disband their own city, if we don't take it and raze it; then build a coloy. that would be much faste that unsing workers to build a road.

I still fully support attacking with the Vet Sword, then covering our butts by pillaging with the Reg Sword no matter what happens with the Vet.

	01-10-2003 22:35									#114
	War Turn Report: Turn 2 (123) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

GCA continues to withdraw in the face of our advance. Eluicidium/Rye has been razed. Dun na Anarchy has been razed. Zarigueya/IDG will soon follow. Their time is running short.

AGA and AGB have (temporarily) merged into one stack to head south, in case GCA has the rest of their army lurking nearby. This coming turn we can move adjacent to Random Outpost (RO) by moving either 2 where four GCA military units are currently stationed, or 3 onto the hill. They will probably kill the Horseman adjacent to IDG which probably won't leave a unit open to kill because they can use a Horse and run away.

Hopefully we can move 2 and kill a few defensive units out in the open, but it's highly unlikely they'll leave the units there to get killed since they obviously can't stop our march.

Army Group C is forming in the rear. 5 Horsemen will soon be ready for active duty. 4 MIs are healing with 3 upgraded now, 1 more to be upgraded and 1 in production. The 4 recently-built NMs are moving closer to the front. Reinforcements to the front will number in total 9 MIs, 5 Horsemen, 4 NMs and however many Catapults we build in the near future.

They cannot and will not stop our march to Catchopolis...

	01-10-2003 23:00									#115
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I'd much rather move to the hill. But,if they leave units on the flat land, outside th city, we should not hesitate to split off some forces to take care of them. IDG will prolly last one more turn, since we cannot attack it this next turn (because the injured Horse will be gone), My guess is that they will not attack WWNN (the bait) and WWNN will be the unit to actually force GCA to disband IDG! Perhaps we need to get one or two more offensive units heading to IDG just in case they decide to move some units inside of it...

	01-10-2003 23:23									#116
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I'd much rather move to the hill. But,if they leave units on the flat land, outside th city, we should not hesitate to split off some forces to take care of them. IDG will prolly last one more turn, since we cannot attack it this next turn (because the injured Horse will be gone), My guess is that they will not attack WWNN (the bait) and WWNN will be the unit to actually force GCA to disband IDG! Perhaps we need to get one or two more offensive units heading to IDG just in case they decide to move some units inside of it...

There might be another thing to consider as well. Before I say it though, please realize that this idea is based on the (remote) possibility that GCA won't raze Random Outpost and the road next to it. Unless they are smart and pillage the road those defensive units are on, it might be a good idea to move onto the roaded tile despite it's lack of good defensive bonus. Once we take Outpost (again assuming they don't raze it first) our remaining units would be able to move several more tiles farther into GCA's territory that same turn thanks to the roads. If we're on the unroaded hill then those units would only be able to move the one tile still.

It's unlikely they'd accomodate us like that, but it's something to think about.

	02-10-2003 04:30									#117
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree I'd much rather move to the hill. But,if they leave units on the flat land, outside th city, we should not hesitate to split off some forces to take care of them. IDG will prolly last one more turn, since we cannot attack it this next turn (because the injured Horse will be gone), My guess is that they will not attack WWNN (the bait) and WWNN will be the unit to actually force GCA to disband IDG! Perhaps we need to get one or two more offensive units heading to IDG just in case they decide to move some units inside of it...

The bulk of GCA's army is still unseen. I had not anticipated they would have a road net fully in place in the lands they secured against CFC, but they do. That subtracts 2 or so turns from the time it would take them to get home and get to the front. This may be why they could not hold Anarchy... all of their forces were too far north of Catchopolis.

We need to keep our stack combined until we can have at least 4 or 5 NMs per stack. With 6-8 Swordsmen they could cripple our NMs then bring in the Horses, wiping out an entire Army Group. If positioned correctly, they could do this without our other Army Group being able to counter attack. They retreat, heal, then come back again... not good.

	02-10-2003 07:05									#118
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I agree with Trip, we keep our army together.

As for Rhothaerill's suggestion, that's something worth considering... if they don't tear up too many of the roads on their way south, we could use their own road network to move deeper toward Catchopolis sooner than would otherwise be the case. Afterall, the goal of the entire war is to reach and capture/level Catchopolis.

On the other hand, there are risks associated with this. More discussion wouldn't hurt.

	04-10-2003 00:47									#119
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Do we have any spare settlers? I know pop points are at a premium, but it sure would be nice to have a settler along with our army, so that we can plunk down a fort town if the need arises.

Otherwise, assuming I'm reading Trip's maps right, we're in good shape (I concur with those who argued for a few more horsies, though ).

-Arrian

	04-10-2003 02:20									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Do we have any spare settlers? I know pop points are at a premium, but it sure would be nice to have a settler along with our army, so that we can plunk down a fort town if the need arises.

We set up a fort for the first turn of our invasion and in doing so were able to kill 6 of their units. They've become savvy to the use of them now, and have even begun pillaging their own roads which might be used against them should we build another.

quote: Otherwise, assuming I'm reading Trip's maps right, we're in good shape (I concur with those who argued for a few more horsies, though ).

So far the only stuff I've posted in this thread has been the plan which is a bit behind schedule (obviously, since it was pretty demanding to begin with, and it was actually more of a "what if everything goes our way" as opposed to a real plan). You can find the actual progress of the war in the ever-so-long turnthreads or by taking a look at the save files.