02-10-2003 08:05									#1
	Team Collaberation Rules. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We need to better work out what is and is not allowed with respect to collaberation.

For example, some players have complained that they do not want their opponents to look at each others turns.

THis brings up related questions... e.g.

Can I tell my partner about where I am on the map by email
Can I tell my partner what I am researching.
Can I tell him where I have seen the opponents
etc.....

One simple way to handle it would be to limit collaberation to in game features only (the diplomacy screen, establishing embassies, etc...)

I would like to hear suggestions, and also any historical precendence from the previous superleague. Were there rules about this? I was not aware of any but I started late in the previous super league.

One good thing about our specific situation is that it is unlikely that any harm has actually been done in any game where the players are protesting because I don't think that any turns have been forwarded to the off turn partners except by the opponents.

Please tell us here, if you have forward turns to your partner. Not that it is anything wrong with what was done, but we just need to know whether this occured to help decide what to do.

Last edited by checkMate on 02-10-2003 at 09:38

	02-10-2003 08:41									#2
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milamber and I did not look at each others turns until it was mentioned as ok in the forum. we have only looked at one turn so far in our game with paul and yoda game 23, but only the one time. we have talked about other games but were waiting on the newest turn to do so. we will wait until it is decided before doing anything else. Purest form; would be to "not" look, but I do not care either way so I will go with the majority. Ken/dancemasseuse

	02-10-2003 09:00									#3
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I have pretty much said all I'm going to on this. I only intend to communicate with my partner through the diplomacy screen. Whatever anyone else does, as far as I'm concerened, is up to them.

Btw checkmate, I think in your eg's above you mean "partner" instead of "opponet" in most of them.

	02-10-2003 09:36									#4
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quote: Originally posted by gumpold Btw checkmate, I think in your eg's above you mean "partner" instead of "opponet" in most of them.

Fixed thanks

	02-10-2003 09:44									#5
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I'm going to go about as extreme as gumpold, but think that once contact is made then e-mail is fair game as well.

Let's face it, the diplomacy screen is rather lousy for chatting but e-mail works quite well for those issues once contact is made.

Again, once contact is made.

I'm drawing off of my experiance in SMAC/SMAX mostly as I say this, adding the e-mail part since SMAC/SMAX has a better diplomacy screen (and the ability to chat in game). In the SMAX games around here, thus far they've all restricted contact until actual contact in game, after that, anything goes. It's what I was planning to do here as well.

The sending to partners, to me, is a safety/time issue. If one partner is going to be away, the other can play it to speed up play.

Then there's the problem, however, of when playing to keep play from lagging you're obviously going to get a shot and see where your partner is on the map. That's just an unfortunate byproduct of being able to keep the game going at a good pace.

I'm tired and may make more sense later.

	02-10-2003 10:14									#6
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i can go either way on this. in all the non SL team games and last years SL team game i only have had to next my partner a couple of times (at their request) which does involve playing their turn, the team games are or should be different as these games are more driven by war than the Alien Life Project. Civ building is a side bar here and war production is more of a reality.
as in the real world countries share infomation all the time intellegence ect...................
as this is a team game i have no problem with having partners seeing what each other is doing and offering advice. these games in the long run come down to taking out your opponets and the only way to do that is by war.
as a side bar here getting your parteners turn allows a better idea of where the turns are at regardless if turns are looked at or not.

my vote is total collaberation also play partners turn if asked other wise these games are going to take 2 years to finnish maybe more. im still working on a SL 1 2x2 game that probably will never finnish due to all the SL 2 2x2 games
but i must repeat only in team games all others no, team games are different.

Last edited by MILAMBER on 04-10-2003 at 02:53

	02-10-2003 12:05									#7
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I'm easy, I'll go with the majority.

	02-10-2003 15:34									#8
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i might have forwarded 1 or 2 turns to ricketyclik, but AFAIK in all of our games our opponents have sent turns to both of us for some while now.

on the issue:
i'll (naturally) bow to the majority, but my vote would go to allow complete information exchange in any way once contact has been made naturally, but not before that.

	02-10-2003 17:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by FlameFlash Let's face it, the diplomacy screen is rather lousy for chatting but e-mail works quite well for those issues once contact is made. Again, once contact is made.

I was kind of thinking the same as Flame Flash too.
Gumpold mentioned that explorers would not havd done what they did if they knew what would happen. And I agree, but after the civilizations meet, then there really is no "real-life" restriction of the information flow. So perhaps there shouldn't be any in the game either.

But before you meet you partner (ally), most of the work is simply to find them.

	02-10-2003 18:50									#10
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I will abide by whatever the majority wants. Personally, I think cooperation between teams before contact is fine.

yoda

	02-10-2003 21:22									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MILAMBER i as this is a team game i have no problem with having partners seeing what each other is doing and offering advice. these games in the long run come down to taking out your opponets and the only way to do that is by war. as a side bar here getting your parteners turn allows a better idea of where the turns are at regaurdless if turns are looked at or not. my vote is total collaberation also play partners turn if asked other wise these games are going to take 2 years to finnish maybe more. im still working on a SL 1 2x2 game that probably will never finnish due to all the SL 2 2x2 games but i must repeat only in team games all others no, team games are different.

I agree with Milamber (and others).

In the teamgames I play (Team Spirit)/have played (Great Alliances)/made (Team Horses), collaberation has been used by (my guess) most players.

	02-10-2003 21:56									#12
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This is a league about teams, is it not?
Unless specified differently what is more naturally than full collaboration between partners?

I haven't forwarded my turn to my pertner simply because most people already send my turns to both me and my teammate and who ever didn't from the beginning I asked him to. I send turn to both teammates as well.

I thought to start a similar thread about rules - I had some suggestions - but I let it pass. Perhaps in any future rule that might apply to SL you should ad the CtP PBEM Rules 2.0 as well.

	03-10-2003 01:19									#13
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There is no way to check if someone has revealed his position for his teammate and thus will be able to get in contact for map/advance exchange fast.
Even with a rule that it's not alowed there is no way to tell if it has happened or not.
For that reason I think full exhange should be allowed.

But, my own opinion is that only exchange of gamefiles should be alowed after first contact is done since ingame comunication is very limited.

/Sir Dimytes Vilantis

	03-10-2003 03:38									#14
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i think i will change my initial vote (full cooperation after contact) to full cooperation (including file exchange) before contact, since not doing so would be too big a luck factor and favor that team that gets lucky enough to meet each other first.

	03-10-2003 05:20									#15
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I like luck myself

	03-10-2003 18:44									#16
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so when are we going to vote on this ?

	03-10-2003 18:58									#17
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and please post the link to the poll when we do vote on it.

	04-10-2003 04:01									#18
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I'm still thinking

	04-10-2003 07:22									#19
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I would like to put forth the following formula for the
answer to this.


I think there are basically three positions.

1) most conservative: Only in-game features may be used to communicate with your partner.

2) somewhat conservative: No collaberation is allowed until after players meet. Afterward all collaberation is allowed. (with some restrictions like no cheating)

3) liberal: Collaberation is allowed from the beginning.

I'm not sure whether there are other positions that can be stated clearly? Are there?

All of these positions have arguable merit. However, I don't think the majority should be able to decide this for someone else. I think that players should have the *right* to expect the more conservative interpretation since that is what would be expected in an ordinary multiplayer game.

So my proposal is that every player should communicate there preference here 1,2, or 3. For each 2x2 game, the player with the more conservative stance will set the rule for the game. I.E. if any player wants 1) then 1) will be the rule. If not, then if any player wants 2) then 2) will be the rule. Otherwise 3) is the rule.

What do you'll think?

There may be some specific issues if this is adopted. E.G. did anybody see their partners turn in an SAR game? But I think there are just a few of those, and they can be resolved one at a time fairly easily.

If a few players say so I would put this proposal up for an up/down vote. Otherwise I would like to here ideas.

Last edited by checkMate on 04-10-2003 at 08:15

	04-10-2003 08:21									#20
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BTW: I will go on record as prefering number 2. I think that this is the most like real life. In life real life civs that had not met could not collaborate. But after meeting there is no real barriers to complete collaberation.

But I will have to request 3) in 2x2 games with Ancients, Raging Hordes, Earth Liberation Front, Mockers Revenge, and Dream Team since I have seen Nimrod's position in those games.

	04-10-2003 09:21									#21
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i have to go with 3 as stated above in all games

	04-10-2003 10:53									#22
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And I have seen Keygens in every 2x2 games so far, that would be option 3 for me also.

	04-10-2003 18:08									#23
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checkMate, since no rule had been specified from the beginning I find it kind obsolete to decide and vote for it now. It is natural that unless specified differently in the rules from the beginning that there is no restriction in anything but the SL rules. Since it appears that most people have already opened their partners turns any future restriction would only make things for those who haven't yet opened their partner's turns worse. OK go ahead with this discussion to see the trend but go with a poll too?

	04-10-2003 18:41									#24
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I don't think it is quite so bad,

There is nothing that prevents or harms anything by restricting the collaberation where possible and when requested.

However, there is some conflict if you already saw you turns against SAR. In other games it probably won't matter in the proposed scheme.

For now the simplest thing is for everybody to simply state the preference 1), 2) or 3)

1) most conservative: Only in-game features may be used to communicate with your partner.

2) somewhat conservative: No collaberation is allowed until after players meet. Afterward all collaberation is allowed. (with some restrictions like no cheating)

3) liberal: Collaberation is allowed from the beginning.

Last edited by checkMate on 04-10-2003 at 19:01

	04-10-2003 20:01									#25
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I hope nobody is suspending play at the moment

The only restriction on play at this time is that we shouldn't be looking at partners turns in games where you are not sure it is ok with your opponents.

Otherwise full speed ahead....

	04-10-2003 21:38									#26
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It sounds like everyone will continue doing whatever they want. Whatever is decided I will continue playing inbetween choice one and two. (Diplomatic messages will be accompanied by e-mails to further explain proposals when nessesary. The same as in non SL games)

	04-10-2003 21:43									#27
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Well I don't necessarily want a one size fits all rule. Don't think that would be \necessary. It is rather like the game settings, there is a standard, and players can agree to change the standard. I am leaning toward setting the standard at level 1. Most games will be played at level three, but I think that all of your games may be played at level 1. Others games may even play at level two. It just depends on the preference of the most conservative player in the group.

	06-10-2003 01:23									#28
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i havent looked at any turns of ricketyclik (my partner) since the issue was raised.

but i dont really want any more detailed rulings that are different for each game. sorry people, im already getting confused with all my games.

whatever we decide, i suggest its binding for all games.

i still support nr. 3 btw.

	06-10-2003 01:48									#29
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My vote is for 3. However, slave trading and other "tricks" is where I draw the line.

	06-10-2003 05:11									#30
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I also vote for 3 (slaves per turn ) Just kidding.