05-10-2003 05:11									#1
	Turn 124, 90BC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To be edited only by the Consuls and Ministers.

Status:
- Republic
- Researching Invention (33) 1 scientist.
- 67 gold +44 gpt
- Slider at 9/0/1 tax/sci/lux

Urgent questions & tasks
- Trade agreement written up with CFC. Done?
- Plans for continuing the war - how best to proceed?
- Do we give CFC contact with CGN?
- What should our new unit build proportions be?
- Safe passage for Po in WT's sealanes. Same treaty as with CGN?

Unit Movement & Actions:

Unit Roster

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

See post below for MOW orders.

Economy:
Apolyton - Horseman built, Start building Settler (turn 1 of 3).
Mingapolco - Horseman built, start building Horseman (turn 1 of 3).
Bananatopia - Building Med Inf (turn 4 of 4). Plan is to start a settler next turn - city will grow to size 9 and the settler will bring it back to 7 at the same time.
Incensity - Horseman built, Start building Horseman (turn 1 of 3).
Nevermore - Building Worker (turn 4 of 10).
Tripoli - Building Barracks (1 turns left).
Equilibrium - Building Walls (turn 19 of 20).
Cuildo de Alcohol - Building Settler (turn 3 of 10).
Hispanica - Building Num Merc (2 of 5).
Possumopolis - Building Cat (turn 5 of 5).
Karina - Building Cat (turn 3 of 10).
LuxInvicta - Building Settler (turn 3 of 6 schedualled).
Big Bend - Building Catapult (5 of 12 schedualled).
BigFurryCity - Building Horseman (turn 3 of 3)
Heart of Darkness - Building Cat (turn 5 of 6 shedualled).

WF:
Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-8-12-13-17. NC.
Mingapolco - starting WF 2-8-9-10-11 (working game). Change WF to 2-5-8-9-10.
Bananatopia - (requires 28 gross trade to keep from Civil Disorder) starting WF 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-17. Change WF to 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-19 (working game).
Incensity - starting WF 4-5-7-17. Change WF to 5-6-7-17.
Nevermore - starting WF 7. NC.
Tripoli - starting WF 7-16-17-18. NC.
Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC.
Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 10-19. NC.
Hispanica - (grows this turn) starting WF 1-2-3-4-??20??. Change WF to 1-2-3-4-20, if not already set.
Possumopolis - starting WF 7-14. NC.
Karina - starting WF 11. NC.
LuxInvicta - starting WF 7-9-13-14. NC.
Big Bend - starting WF 19. NC.
BigFurryCity - starting WF 5-6-7-8-19-20. NC
Heart of Darkness - starting WF 10-11-13. Change WF to 3-10-11.

Workers:
Reference: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
Monkee & CalcII - Tile cleared, workers Frozen
Dan & Gits - move 7-4 to Big Bend 4 (WF #7), will start clearing next turn.
panag - move 2-2, joining Spike at Ming 1 (WF #6), will start clearing next turn.
Frodo - start clearing HoD 2 (4 turns).
Gang of 3 (MrWIA, EVC & Dejon) - move 2-2-3 to Tripoli 3 (WF #4) will start to mine next turn.
Out of Darkness - clearing HoD 2 (4 turns).
Yin - Move to the silks, will colonize next turn (this was posted about in full detail several turns back).
Lib & Slave Farb - Roading (2 turns left). The road will be available next turn and the colony built at the same time. Silks will be connected next turn.
Horse & Squid - clearing Jungle (2 turns left).
Mark & Otto - clearing Jungle (3 turns left).
Spike - clearing Jungle (11 turns left).
Yo & rah - working for the MoW.
GCA Slave on Expedition - Name him Slave Anarchy - riding the slave trade route to home.



Diplomacy:
GCA: WAR
CFC:
CGN:
GWT:

Comment, please, many "plans" are just suggestions or ideas, not decisions already made.

---
Note: keypad directions used for all except WF orders.

Discussion and basic reporting to follow. See the topped thread for comprehensive results

The Turn

Last edited by Trip on 07-10-2003 at 09:04

	05-10-2003 05:18									#2
	MOW Orders Inflate your Upload Space

Please note all change in units in all Army Groups!

Unit Roster

AGA contains: 7 vet MIs (01 through 07), 3 vet NMs (06, 08, 10), 1 elite Warrior (06), 1 regular Warrior (02) (12 units). {Random Outpost 8-7}

AGB contains: 6 vet MIs (8, 11, 18 through 21), 2 vet NMs (10, 12), 1 regular NM (02), 5 Catapults (01 through 05) (14 units) {Random Outpost 8-7}

AGC contains: 1 elite MI (15), 1 vet MI (14), 1 vet NM (16) , 1 Catapult (06) (4 units) {IDG 4-7}

Damaged units healing: M13, M16, M17
War Casualties: M09, M10, N09, H01, H02, S01, S02

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moves 6-6-9 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB. {Over by GWT}

M12 BigFurryInfantry moves 4-1-2; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium. {Possum 4}

N01 MerZenary moves 2; watching out for barbs in the north. {BFC 7-8-8}
N04 Togas moves 9 onto future silk colony site; will be used to protect the colony and Equilibrium and the road while BFI takes the camp SE of the city. {Equilibrium 4-4-4}
N05 Enamel moves 2 and attacks barb camp. {BB 3-3-3}

W03 Alva moves to Mingapulco and upgrades for 60 gold. Becomes M26 Alva.

War Orders

Worker Yo moves 2-2; builds road next turn.
Worker Rah moves 2-2; builds road next turn.

G02 Expedition [GCA Slave Worker] moves 9-9-8; heading home. {Off GCA east coast}

H03 vonHorseman moves 2-2-2-3; catching up with the rest of the army. {Nevermore 8}
H04 Trip's Guard II moves 1-1-1-2-1-2 to Karina. {Apolyton}
H05 'Mingapulco' moves 2-1-2-1-2-2 to Nevermore 8. {Mingapulco}
H06 'Incensity' moves 2-2-1-1-1-1. {Incensity}

M13 Beta moves 9-6 to Nevermore to heal. {Nevermore 4-1}
M16 'B', M17 'C' continue healing. {Nevermore}
M22-24 vondrack, Aidun Makahlua move 1-2-2. {Karina}
M25 'K' moves 2-1-2. {Mingapulco}

N13 ZargonX moves 2-2. {Nevermore}
N14 Pikesfan moves 2-2-2. {Nevermore 8}
N15 Hungryopd moves 2-2. {Nevermore}

W12 WWNN moves 1; will rejoin AGA.

AGA moves 3. {Random Outpost 8}

AGB moves 3. {Random Outpost 8}

AGC moves 3. {IDG 4-7}

All other units to remain as they are.

Please take all discussion on the war to the Turn-by-Turn thread.

Last edited by Trip on 07-10-2003 at 05:53

	07-10-2003 05:01									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The turn is here.

RO and IDG were both abandoned as expected. They've fallen back and all we can see is a Worker, 4/4 Sword, 4/4 Horse and 3/5 Horse at Algalord 8-7.

The updated plan for this turn is to move AGA/B 3 where we'll be 2 tiles from Algalord and on a hill. We will then wait for AGC and AGD to arrive which will bring us up to 22/23 MIs, 10 NMs, 8 Catapults, 5 Horsemen, et al. We then march south.

MOW orders for this turn will be updated to reflect this.

	07-10-2003 07:49									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Non-War Orders

G01 Princess of Apolyton [WhiteBandit] moved 6-6-9 then uses FORTIFY ALL trick with WB. {Over by GWT}

M12 BigFurryInfantry moved 4-1-2; heading for the barb camp southeast of Equilibrium. {Possum 4}

N01 MerZenary moved 2; watching out for barbs in the north. {BFC 7-8-8}
N04 Togas moved 9 to where the Silk colony will be; barb Horse chickened out and ran off somewhere. {Equilibrium 4-4-7}
N05 Enamel moved 2 and attacked barb camp. {BB 3-3-3} - no hp lost, +25 gold

W03 Alva moved to Mingapulco and upgraded for 60 gold. Became M26 Alva.

War Orders

M13 Beta moved 2-1 to the tile 1 of the ruins of Elucidium to prevent a sneak through the west of the isthmus (will be replaced by WWNN when he gets there). {Nevermore 4-1}

Worker Yo moved 2-2; builds road next turn.
Worker Rah moved 2-2; builds road next turn.

G02 Expedition [GCA Slave Worker] moved 9-9-8; heading home. Slave renamed 'Slave Anarchy' and uses fortify all trick. {Off GCA east coast}

H03 vonHorseman moved 2-2-2-3; catching up with the rest of the army. {Nevermore 8}
H04 Horseman in Apolyton named Trip's Guard II and moved 1-1-1-2-1-2 to Karina. {Apolyton}
H05 Horseman in Mingapulco named 'Mingapulco' and moved 2-1-2-1-2-2 to Nevermore 8. {Mingapulco}
H06 Horseman in Incensity named 'Incensity' and moved 2-2-1-1-1-1. {Incensity}

M16 'B', M17 'C' continue healing. {Nevermore}
M22-24 vondrack, Aidun Makahlua moved 1-2-2. {Karina}
M25 'K' renamed 'Medieval Infantry K' and moved 2-1-2. {Mingapulco}

N13 ZargonX moved 2-2. {Nevermore}
N14 Pikesfan moved 2-2-2. {Nevermore 8}
N15 Hungryopd moved 2-2. {Nevermore}

W12 WWNN moved 4. Will replace Beta in watching the west coast for sneaky GCA tactics.

AGA moved 3. {Random Outpost 8}
AGB moved 3. {Random Outpost 8}
AGC moved 3. {IDG 4-7}

All other units to remain as they are.

Economy:
Apolyton - Horseman built, Start building Settler (turn 1 of 3).
Mingapolco - Horseman built, start building Horseman (turn 1 of 3).
Bananatopia - Building Med Inf (turn 4 of 4). Plan is to start a settler next turn - city will grow to size 9 and the settler will bring it back to 7 at the same time.
Incensity - Horseman built, Start building Horseman (turn 1 of 3).
Nevermore - Building Worker (turn 4 of 10).
Tripoli - Building Barracks (1 turns left).
Equilibrium - Building Walls (turn 19 of 20).
Cuildo de Alcohol - Building Settler (turn 3 of 10).
Hispanica - [/B]Building MI, changed to Num Merc as this is what the MoI orders mention should be being built[/B] (2 of 5).
Possumopolis - Building Cat (turn 5 of 5).
Karina - Building Cat (turn 3 of 10).
LuxInvicta - Building Settler (turn 3 of 6 schedualled).
Big Bend - Building Catapult (5 of 12 schedualled).
BigFurryCity - Building Horseman (turn 3 of 3)
Heart of Darkness - Building Cat (turn 5 of 6 shedualled).

WF:
Apolyton - starting WF 3-4-8-12-13-17. NC.
Mingapolco - starting WF 2-8-9-10-11 (working game). Change WF to 2-5-8-9-10.
Bananatopia - (requires 28 gross trade to keep from Civil Disorder) starting WF 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-17. Change WF to 2-3-4-5-6-7-16-19 (working game).
Incensity - starting WF 4-5-7-17. Change WF to 5-6-7-17.
Nevermore - starting WF 7. NC.
Tripoli - starting WF 7-16-17-18. NC.
Equilibrium - starting WF scientist. NC.
Cuildo de Alcohol - starting WF 10-19. NC.
Hispanica - (grows this turn) starting WF 1-2-3-4-20. NC.
Possumopolis - starting WF 7-14. NC.
Karina - starting WF 11. NC.
LuxInvicta - starting WF 7-9-13-14. NC.
Big Bend - starting WF 19. NC.
BigFurryCity - starting WF 5-6-7-8-19-20. NC
Heart of Darkness - starting WF 10-11-13. Change WF to 3-10-11.

Workers:
Reference: Map of tiles still needing Improvements
Monkee & CalcII - Tile cleared, workers Frozen
Dan & Gits - move 7-4 to Big Bend 4 (WF #7), will start clearing next turn.
panag - move 2-2, joining Spike at Ming 1 (WF #6), will start clearing next turn.
Frodo - start clearing HoD 2 (4 turns).
Gang of 3 (MrWIA, EVC & Dejon) - move 2-2-3 to Tripoli 3 (WF #4) will start to mine next turn.
Out of Darkness - clearing HoD 2 (4 turns).
Yin - Move to the silks, will colonize next turn (this was posted about in full detail several turns back).
Lib & Slave Farb - Roading (2 turns left). The road will be available next turn and the colony built at the same time. Silks will be connected next turn.
Horse & Squid - clearing Jungle (2 turns left).
Mark & Otto - clearing Jungle (3 turns left).
Spike - clearing Jungle (11 turns left).
Yo & rah - working for the MoW.
GCA Slave on Expedition - Name him Slave Anarchy - riding the slave trade route to home.

Things noticed

Reg Spear seen in Server Fire, now size 1 (something was popped there, or a settler built).

1 Elite Horse (3/5), 1 Fortified Vet Sword (4/4). 1 Vet Horse (4/4) and 1 GCA worker seen 7 8 of Algalord. No units at Algalord 8, Algalord 7 or Algalord 7 7.

nye noticed GCA is building the Great Library in Catchopolis - I pondered on their plan - if they have a Great Leader from one of their battles (maybe killing jagjef and Flash?) they may build it, reach tech parity and entrench with Pikemen...

Discussion and changes
Changes are in bold in the orders. nye had the idea of protecting the western portion of the land the stack of doom is passing trough and preventing sneak attacks. Thus Beta has moved there until WWNN can take his place West of the ruins of Elucidium. There was very little discussion as for most of the chat nye and MrWIA were the only two not idle. That is until the GL was ntoiced under construction in Catchopolis, when everyone woke up and started chatting.

	07-10-2003 11:06									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I would just like to point out that Aggie was active and participated during the quiet period of chat where it was decided to cover the Western flank. The Ministry of War was covered. Thank you, Aggie.

	07-10-2003 12:13									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Sorry Aggie - I remember your input.

I stand corrected.

	07-10-2003 14:58									#13
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt nye noticed GCA is building the Great Library in Catchopolis - I pondered on their plan - if they have a Great Leader from one of their battles (maybe killing jagjef and Flash?) they may build it, reach tech parity and entrench with Pikemen...

They wouldn't be building it unless it was a leader rush. Or perhaps if they wanted to change the outcome of a battle.

Is it possible to have some more units in the south to get to the iron before they have it reconnected? Probably not.

Perhaps we should build another galley, we could really do with dropping 2 NM and 2 MI near their Iron as soon as possible.

	07-10-2003 17:39									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

They may have been prebuilding it for some time now, or it may be their plan to try and hold us off at Algalord while they finish it, then lash out at us with Medieval Infantry at that time. If GCA managed to get THREE leaders, I think it might be time to seriously re-examine the "Is GCA cheating" thread.

Re-cutting their iron is a non-trivial task; bear in mind they will probably take steps to road BOTH irons now, and protect them. I think we should probably abandon any plans to deprive them of iron further; they can make this task REALLY hard for us quite easily - and as we've noted before, they're not stupid: they WILL make the task hard.

	07-10-2003 19:49									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Because of poly's problems (I assume) the turn is not available for download from the link in this thread and no-one posted a screenshot with the scores.

What were the posted scores this turn?

Thank You.

	07-10-2003 19:54									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon They may have been prebuilding it for some time now, or it may be their plan to try and hold us off at Algalord while they finish it, then lash out at us with Medieval Infantry at that time. If GCA managed to get THREE leaders, I think it might be time to seriously re-examine the "Is GCA cheating" thread.

Problem is that they're building it in their capital. They wouldn't be able to pre-build with the Palace.

I'd say 10:1 that they're rushing the Library with a GL.

	07-10-2003 22:27									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Trip Problem is that they're building it in their capital. They wouldn't be able to pre-build with the Palace. I'd say 10:1 that they're rushing the Library with a GL.

We should thank them for such a nice gift. The implications are going to be quite interesting, especially with the deals we already have in place.

This doesn't worry me very much. It will be several more turns for the iron to be hooked up. And there treasury is pretty low, i think 150 right now, and they are running 90% tax, so I don't see them being able to upgrade more than a handful of units to pikes.

And luckily quite a few, 6? swords are tied up in their armies.

	08-10-2003 05:00									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel We should thank them for such a nice gift. The implications are going to be quite interesting, especially with the deals we already have in place. This doesn't worry me very much. It will be several more turns for the iron to be hooked up. And there treasury is pretty low, i think 150 right now, and they are running 90% tax, so I don't see them being able to upgrade more than a handful of units to pikes. And luckily quite a few, 6? swords are tied up in their armies.

Another implication is - we ought to pillage their Roads more actively to reduce their gpt income.

	08-10-2003 05:11									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel We should thank them for such a nice gift. The implications are going to be quite interesting, especially with the deals we already have in place. This doesn't worry me very much. It will be several more turns for the iron to be hooked up. And there treasury is pretty low, i think 150 right now, and they are running 90% tax, so I don't see them being able to upgrade more than a handful of units to pikes. And luckily quite a few, 6? swords are tied up in their armies.

Enough to upgrade 8 Pikes at least.

Difference between Spears and Pikes in Catchopolis is defense of 4.5 (relatively close with our MIs) and 6.75 (which will be hell to get past).

6.75 x 8 is 18 extra defensive points greater than 4.5 x 8. This has significant implications.

	08-10-2003 05:19									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Trip Enough to upgrade 8 Pikes at least. Difference between Spears and Pikes in Catchopolis is defense of 4.5 (relatively close with our MIs) and 6.75 (which will be hell to get past). 6.75 x 8 is 18 extra defensive points greater than 4.5 x 8. This has significant implications.

Well, then I hope you have a plan to counter that, MOW (wink smiley)

Perhaps a move to sever the road from Algalord south to Catchopolis is possible before the iron is connected, though I'm not sure if a couple horses could make it without being killed first.

	08-10-2003 05:22									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by asleepathewheel Well, then I hope you have a plan to counter that, MOW (wink smiley) Perhaps a move to sever the road from Algalord south to Catchopolis is possible before the iron is connected, though I'm not sure if a couple horses could make it without being killed first.

All we can do is pound away.

	08-10-2003 21:49									#22
	Support Apolyton

Cats, Cats, Cats and then.........more Cats!

	08-10-2003 22:04									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by BigFree Cats, Cats, Cats and then.........more Cats!

Damn straight!

	08-10-2003 22:11									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here's an (incomplete) sim of the future of the Cross of Apolytonia for those who want to experiment.

FP is in Dominus, Palace is in Catchopolis. The old core is surprisingly productive, even without Courthouses.

Rename this file to DemoFuture.bix, it is NOT a save file, but a BIX:

http://apolyton.net/upload/files/Trip/DemoFuture.sav

Edit: Forgot that the discussion over this issue was in the turn 125 thread.

	09-10-2003 03:26									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Just to point out a few iron-trivia things:
- by establishing a new Anarchy city, GCA can't build a colony Which is a delay to them... assuming next turn they will have Feudalism, I would have sacrified a worker to build a colony, get the iron, upgrade pikes, and only then build the new city. Added advantage is that at the expense of a workers, the road is instant.
- Now, they will need multiple turns to get it roaded... what, 19 with 1 worker, 10 with 2, 7 with 3? More then 3 workers is not realistic. The only real danger is the iron near Anarchy, the other one is even farther off, and takes more worker turns.
- So, at least, there is a gap of 7 turns before iron will reach the capital, which is, certainly with the Glib, likely to be the best defended city, meaning most of the spears waiting there to be upgraded. 7 turns is also the minimum of turns the army will need to reach and conquer Catchopolis.
- However... Catchopolis is only connected to the iron at that time by one road only: the one on C6, C62 or C32. Cutting any of these will leave Catchopolis ironless, even if the road to the source is connected. C6 and C62 can both be reached from the forest at C63, C6 can be reached from C69. And... there's a galley close by, which can go to our forces, load a NM and a horse, and get back in time to cut the road before iron can travel across it.

So, why not take the chance, load up a couple of units, unload them under relative protection of the forest (sure, it's no mountain), and try to cut the road? It won't help with anything in the South, but if it can mean the conquering of their capital, I'm sure GCA won't be pleased.

DeepO

	09-10-2003 03:43									#26
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

DeepO make a very good point. It isn't enough that they simply road the iron tile - they must also connect it to their cities. They might choose to turtle, but we can easily isolate their only two cities capable of serious production (Catchopolis and Balance). If they want to reconnect the iron, they'd have to come out and fight us - which is what we want.

My view is that GCA is clearly doomed. The GL won't help them. We should be patient with this war and accept that it will take longer than first envisaged; this means we shouldn't neglect domestic affairs and we should continue with expansion and improvements. Our MFG will only rise in the future; GCA's is plummetting drastically. Soon enough, they will become tired and make a mistake, which is when we should pounce.