07-10-2003 12:41									#61
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I guess this is "biased" too

http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/index.html

	07-10-2003 12:43									#62
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And yes, Turkey shouldnt be allowed to the EU in another 15-20 years

	07-10-2003 12:48									#63
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius I guess this is "biased" too http://www.diaspora-net.org/Turkey/index.html

Duh! it's a greek link!

http://www.diaspora-net.org/About/About_us_index.htm

There are some good links, there's no need to bullshit.

Oh, and any comparison to the holocaust in that case isn't applicable, if only for the reason that this has been admitted by thousands of people, the German government, etc.

I am only searching for the truth here.

quote: And yes, Turkey shouldnt be allowed to the EU in another 15-20 years

THEN, all the things you're siting as reason, will engulf whatever sanity the country has left in it.

	07-10-2003 12:57									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Oooh, I'm getting a good idea. Perhaps in Moslem countries you should be allowed to hire a lawyer before you are tortured, and his job would be to be tortured in your place. Sort of a grown up whipping boy. Damn that's good.

Lawyers getting tortured! That is a good idea. Unfortunetly all the torture stops once the lawyers show up because its not allowed. Before that however, the crims are fair game.

	07-10-2003 13:05									#65
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Oh come on, the turks are real whackos(not all of them offcourse). They murder a whole nation, then try to denie it. In that sence it's far more worse than germans who at least dealt and admitted the holocaust. The army holds most of the power in Turkey. They have 1 illegal occupation uderway(cyprus), they have very bad reputation in dealing with the kurds. I'm not saying that greeks are the most objective in this, but surely you dont belive its all just hellenic lies. even with turkey being your ally in the middle east(with the USA)

	07-10-2003 13:16									#66
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The point is that making Turkey part of the EU will give them much greater leverage in sorting these things out.

I actually think the Greeks are very well placed to comment on the Turkey situation, but Im glad you admit they cannot be too objective.

	07-10-2003 13:17									#67
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You see, that's what I am not sure of. In this site, a british source, I saw contemporary quotes that've shown all-around genocide, with the armenians being targeted the most by the turks, and turks targetting other groups as well, but I also saw that turks got slaughtered whenever the armenians or any other group could kill them, as well. With the support of the Russian army, for example, during WWI.

The issue of Cyprus is also not as easy as the EU and the UN would like us to believe. During the civil war in cyprus that led to the intervention by turkey, and the creation of the turkish regime in the north, The turkish minority in the island was threatened with genocide by the greek, and their nationalist religious leaders. I think that the issue is once again not as obvious as some, esp. the EU would like us to think.

	07-10-2003 13:32									#68
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Yeah, I have read about the cyprus too. And you know not all of our history books are biased pro-christian and antisemitic. It's widely rocognised that there was greek terrorism in cyprus. But still the occupation is illegal. What comes to kurds again kurds have killed turks too, thats for sure. I hope I wont sound too arrogant antisemitic racist eurocommie to you but we have seen over the centries what the turks have done to the christians in turkey, to the greeks, to the armenians, kurds. We'we had them taking over large parts of the south eastern europe. The rise of turkish ultra nationalism in the Ataturk era and after is not very convincing they have changed their brutal ways. This has nothing to do with them being muslim. I guess we are a little scared of their brutal past, we have good reasons to be. This Union is not open for all.

	07-10-2003 13:38									#69
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Over the centuries is #%$%ing irrelevant. We're talking about 20th century. I know that the turks have been *******s throughout history. But EVERYONE WAS AN ******* throughout history. I am not claiming that Europe is racist. I think it has little to do with racism, but with the different culture. I can fully understand this. Thing is, Turkey is trying to become more european, so it will be similar to your culture. It's currently the only muslim nation trying to do so. I think you have to support them in this endeavour, instead of saying "go away", and thus pushing them to the side of the muslim fanatics. I am not saying you have to let them into the EU now, what I am saying is to let them ( their leadership ) know, that if they'll succeed in the task of becoming european, there is a reward in it.


I support Kurdish independence, btw.

	07-10-2003 13:49									#70
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Ok, i'm all for the Turks membership too, but only after they'll get their domestic things in order. Surely you understand that we cant take a nation in with
a) Huge human rights issues, with women, minorities, illegal occupations, military as ruling de facto.
b)Death penalty.
c)Immense economic problems

And the groving islamic fundamentalism is not very convincing either. We dont say go away, we say come back later.

Last edited by laurentius on 07-10-2003 at 13:57

	07-10-2003 14:58									#71
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I just realised that when the 10 new countries become members next year, that the European branch of the western civilisation is united (with a few exceptions). Including non-western societies is perhaps too big a leap? I'm not saying this is my opinon, it's just a thought.

Assuming "western" = catholic and protestant countries. Greece would have to leave :-)

	07-10-2003 15:18									#72
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Coming late to this, so here's a variety of responses to a whole bunch of previous posts:

1) Turkey has already abolished the death penalty.

2) Cyprus is going to solve itself; the vast majority of Turkish Cypriots favor the solution offered by Kofi Annan, a solution also favored by the Greek Cypriots. The only obstacle remaining is Rauf Denktash, the head of teh Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus. But elections are coming, and Denktash is out of favor with Ankara. I think big changes are about to take place.

3) There have been moves under the current government to reduce the power of the military, but these are too new to be pronounced either a success or a failure. Torture, on the other hand, remains a serious problem. In both instances, I think you see that the biggest problem in Turkish culture -- both for EU membership and in general -- is the fact that the State is consider more important than the individual. Until that shifts, Turkey doesn't belong in the EU.

4) I'm convinced that what happened to the Armenians was genocide -- but I'm not convinced that it's enough to keep them out of the EU. The point of comparison shouldn't be the Nazi Holocaust; it should be the Belgian slaughter of natives in the Congo. I don't think Belgium's ever taken responsibility for that (or, if they have, it's been very recent); the preferred line from Belgium has long been that the Congo was, technically, the personal property of King Leopold, and so the long record of atrocity there has nothing to do with the rest of the country. Riiiight. If Belgium can join the EU with the blood of the Congo on its hands, I don't see why Turkey should be kept out because of the Armenians.

5) The Turkish objections to a Kurdish state are that, first, such a state would give Kurdish terrorists a safe haven and, second, that there would then be international pressure for Turkey to cede a significant part of its territory to help create it. I think both fears are legitimate. Of course, Kurdish terrorism is to some extent a problem the Turks created themselves, so it's hard to sympathize there; but no nation can be expected to give up its territory without a fight.

6) I think the real problem with Turkey joining the EU is how unbalancing it would be. I was once talking about this with the former British ambassador to Turkey, and he compared it to allowing Mexico to become a US state. That seems about right; the problem is not that the society is so different; it's that it's so big. Turkey would be a lot easier to accept into the EU if it were the size of Estonia; they'd have no choice but to play by EU rules. But given their current size, they would play a big role in making the rules; that's what scares people.

7) Turkish women are, indeed, incredibly hot.

	07-10-2003 15:54									#73
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I don't understand why Americans are so eagerly lobbying for EU to accept Turkey as a member? Let's see if they can solve the human rights issues and then we can start the discussion. But absoloutely not before or even during that process.

Politically, I would compare it to letting communist Cuba become a member state in the US with Castro as life-time Governor. In size however, it would be like letting Mexico become a state in the US as Rufus pointed out.

	07-10-2003 16:00									#74
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Ollie: Americans are lobbying for turkey because it would be americas greatest friend in the EU. Turkeys army is practically funded by the US. To them it would be "our (paid)guy" in the union.

	07-10-2003 16:04									#75
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The Cuba comparison isn't really right, though. Turkey is a democracy -- just a highly dysfunctional democracy, not unlike Mexico. The role of the military in national government is complex, and not easily reducible to "dictatorship"; the best evidence for that is that the country is currently being run by a party that the military absolutely detests -- yet that party was freely elected and has (so far) ruled without military interference.

	07-10-2003 16:23									#76
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Rufus, I think the military is seriously pressuring the current government in its actions. It's just doing it behind the curtains

	07-10-2003 16:44									#77
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Rufus, I think the military is seriously pressuring the current government in its actions. It's just doing it behind the curtains

So well that it actually does much of the stuff that the military strives for itself? In any case, we should be glad that this newly formed party isn't taking the islamic route.

	07-10-2003 16:54									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I don't understand why Americans are so eagerly lobbying for EU to accept Turkey as a member? Let's see if they can solve the human rights issues and then we can start the discussion. But absoloutely not before or even during that process.

I think the discussion is in the air for years now, and it already caused changes in Turkey (eg. no death penalty anymore). That is IMO they way to go - give Trukey a perpective for EU membership, but make crystal clear that this comes not without more reforms in the country.

Every member of the EU has to agree to certain rules esp. when it comes to human rights issues, so must Turkey, if they want to be in the union.

	07-10-2003 16:56									#79
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I have nothing against Turkey joining the EU, after they finished to do their human rights homework and solve the problem of the Kurds without killing them all. They are already doing this work, but that's a fairly long process. So I have no doubt they will be let in, but probably not before about 2015 or 2020. But in the end they will be in. I don't give a flying **** about their religion and them being muslims makes no difference to me.

quote: I am not saying you have to let them into the EU now, what I am saying is to let them ( their leadership ) know, that if they'll succeed in the task of becoming european, there is a reward in it.

Azazel, I believe that is exactly what they are told.

	07-10-2003 17:11									#80
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paiktis asked me to post this for him:

Turkey will never be part of the EU. It would be nice if that was because of the murders of millions, the rapes and the attrocities which must be payed with blood. See Laurentius link Greeks in Turkey for info. But it will not become part of the EU for other lesser
reasons:

1)Military will not get out of politics. This will simply not hapen or Turkey will go deeper into Islamism. Without the army out of politics EU will not accept it. It is a catch 22 with no escape.

2) Human rights. There are no human rights in Turkey if you dont consider yourself Turk and even then they are not a lot.

3) Turkey is vast and vastly poor (it will be curtailed when we kick their asses)

4) US-Turkey link. US weapons make the Turkey attrocities and occupation possible. US sucks and is anti-European. Untill this changes the EU will not accept a snake in its bossom.

The only word that comes to mind when I think of Turkley is revenge those bastards with rivers of blood and that doesn't include entrance in the EU.


I want to point out that I will NOT post anything else by paiktis. I am not here to re-send his messages.

	07-10-2003 17:21									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel You see, that's what I am not sure of. In this site, a british source, I saw contemporary quotes that've shown all-around genocide, with the armenians being targeted the most by the turks, and turks targetting other groups as well, but I also saw that turks got slaughtered whenever the armenians or any other group could kill them, as well. With the support of the Russian army, for example, during WWI. The issue of Cyprus is also not as easy as the EU and the UN would like us to believe. During the civil war in cyprus that led to the intervention by turkey, and the creation of the turkish regime in the north, The turkish minority in the island was threatened with genocide by the greek, and their nationalist religious leaders. I think that the issue is once again not as obvious as some, esp. the EU would like us to think.

So would you have the victims just sit there and let themselves be deported and slaughtered without a chance to fight back? You of all people should understand what it means when a people are exterminated by another. I am disappointed in you. You buy the propaganda that the Turkish government puts out because it is in Israel's security interest not to damage the relationship between Israel and Turkey. While I thoroughly understand the need to have allies in a volitile part of the world I do not understand how you and your government can call the genocide insignificant. Your people share a history of persecution as do mine and I'm insulted by anyone who would deny such events took place.

Tell my grandparents who were forced to abandon their homes in Marash and forced to march across the desert to Syria or die that the genocide never took place.

You're sadly mistaken if you believe that an ally who believes in Pan-Turanism is any diferent that nations who support Pan-Arabism. The goal is ultimately the same no matter what banner it flies under.

	07-10-2003 17:35									#82
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If I'd buy any of the Turkish propoganda I'd think that you were the ones attacking them.

quote: So would you have the victims just sit there and let themselves be deported and slaughtered without a chance to fight back?

Not by attacking other civilians, and killing thousands of them, as well. Two wrongs don't make a right. Jews never killed german civilians during WWII.

Oh, and if you think that my position vis a vis this issue is because of the relationship of Israel with Turkey, you're very much mistaken. I have no problem denouncing the racist South African regime, even though my country had many contacts with it, and I have no problems denouncing my govenment for making that connection.

Look, I am not claiming that there was no genocide and mass killing of innocent Armenians. What I am claiming is that the Armenians sure didn't have any bad feelings about doing the same thing to the Turks whenever the opportunity came, and it came a couple of times, when the Russian forces allowed it to happen.

Of course Turks, were the main guilty party in that civil war. Neither did I call that genocide "insignificant". I would like to point out that they weren't the only ones, and such atrocities were committed by all sides, in that era.

	07-10-2003 17:35									#83
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nice attempted-troll there Azazel

I'm sure paiktis would never say anything that moderate

	07-10-2003 17:38									#84
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Azazel? It ain't me. It's paiktis.

	07-10-2003 17:40									#85
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And why wouldnt he use his own Login or are YOU and paiktis one and the same?

	07-10-2003 17:42									#86
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Does this mean I'm supposed to troll Azazel now?

	07-10-2003 17:42									#87
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LMAO! That's because he's banned, silly!

	07-10-2003 17:44									#88
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Oh i see. Banned? For doing what?

	07-10-2003 17:45									#89
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Calling me names...

	07-10-2003 17:51									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel If I'd buy any of the Turkish propoganda I'd think that you were the ones attacking them. (Point taken) Two wrongs don't make a right. (Agreed but tell that to the victims) Oh, and if you think that my position vis a vis this issue is because of the relationship of Israel with Turkey, you're very much mistaken. I have no problem denouncing the racist South African regime, even though my country had many contacts with it, and I have no problems denouncing my govenment for making that connection. (Thank you that changes my opinion of your views in the positive direction) Look, I am not claiming that there was no genocide and mass killing of innocent Armenians. What I am claiming is that the Armenians sure didn't have any bad feelings about doing the same thing to the Turks whenever the opportunity came, and it came a couple of times, when the Russian forces allowed it to happen. Of course Turks, were the main guilty party in that civil war. Neither did I call that genocide "insignificant". I would like to point out that they weren't the only ones, and such atrocities were committed by all sides, in that era. (Our people have been persecuted for centuries and were on the verge of extinction many times in it's troubled history. Thank goodness that the Russians came to our aid for I strongly believe that we would not exist today if it weren't for their help. What Stalin did later was terrible but that is a topic for another discussion. Killing is a horrible thing no matter what the reason but I am gratefull that I am here today to discuss the matter with you all. Since world opinion does not give a damn about history I'm glad matters were taken into our own hands. Hitler it seems was right when he stated "Who remembers the Armenians?")