07-10-2003 00:34									#1
	Should Turkey be allowed to join the EU? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What are your thoughts/opinions on this matter?

We all know that for years Turkey has been aspiring to join the EU.

I'm interested in what our European Apolytoners think about this question.

Discuss.......

	07-10-2003 00:36									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

No. Nein. Nyet. Nei. Nej. Ei saa peitäa

	07-10-2003 00:38									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Would you like an oppressant muslim state become a member of the US?

	07-10-2003 00:41									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I dont really consider Turkey to be fully geographically part of Europe. Parts are most definetly middle east.

If we let Turkey in, what about Russia? Parts of Russia are eastern Europe, but as for the rest of it.....

How far are we going to let this union spread?

	07-10-2003 00:41									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I think most Europeans think they are too many, too poor, too muslim, too asian etc.

	07-10-2003 00:42									#6
	Tired of ads?

Im actually for Turkeys entry. I think the union, and its rules, could do a lot of good for the Turkish people, and beyond.

	07-10-2003 00:42									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, it should. That's the only way you will see change in turkey. Otherwise, it will collapse and become a really muslim state. ( Now, it is secularist, but it won't hold for long, if europe will use all sorts of fake reasonings to keep it away. )

People, this country can become the light of the muslim states, that will show them the right way for the future: secular, advanced democratic. By alienating them, you're letting them become muslim extremist.

	07-10-2003 00:44									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Azazel ... By alienating them, you're letting them become muslim extremist.

I guess you speak from experience?

	07-10-2003 00:44									#9
	Tired of ads?

quote: too muslim, too asian etc.

Ouch. Most of the complaints I hear are about human rights records.

	07-10-2003 00:47									#10
	Got spare money?

Yes, human rights is the major reason but another good point is that Turkey is not located in Europe. It's called the EUROPEAN Union after all.

	07-10-2003 00:47									#11
	Suffering from ads?

quote: 'human rights records.'

Generally involving women's rights?

	07-10-2003 00:47									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Some of Turkey is in Europe....

	07-10-2003 00:48									#13
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Azazel People, this country can become the light of the muslim states, that will show them the right way for the future: secular, advanced democratic. .

The new Iraq can do that.

	07-10-2003 00:50									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Or Palestine

	07-10-2003 00:50									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Snotty quote: too muslim, too asian etc. Ouch. Most of the complaints I hear are about human rights records.

well name one muslim asian country that doesn't have a bad human rights record

	07-10-2003 00:51									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie I guess you speak from experience?

Oh no. The most secular our 'friends' have become is when they've become ultra-nationalist pan-arabist. OTOH, Turkey still has a strong amount of the tradition of Ataturk, a person WHO WANTED TO MAKE TURKEY PART OF EUROPE, Unlike Nasser, for example, who wanted to return to the past days of arab glory, or something.

quote: Generally involving women's rights?

Not so. The problem with turkey isn't women's rights. Actually, in comparison to many other muslim countries, esp. in the ME, Turkey is an examplary country.

	07-10-2003 00:53									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I dont get your point gangerwolf.

	07-10-2003 00:55									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Generally involving women's rights?

Er, I think stoping torture was quite high on the list.

	07-10-2003 00:57									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

Gangerolf's point is the same as mine.

Islamic countries have different ideas of human rights than the West.

Torture? Haven't heard much about that.

	07-10-2003 00:58									#20
	Remove this text

Banana...

	07-10-2003 00:59									#21
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf The new Iraq can do that.

the new Iraq isn't NEARLY in the almost perfect position Turkey is in in that regard.

What's bothering you about Turkey? that it's population is muslim? You have no problem recieving muslim immigrants by the million, and if you do, your immigration system is the least effective government institution in the history of mankind. The ammount of muslims in the EU is already in the order of magnitude of turkey's population, and comes from much less europeanized places. The Europeanized part of turkey stays in turkey, since they are the ones that prosper. It's the poor SoBs that immigrate....

Human Rights Record? That would obligatorily change with the entrance to the EU, and you people know it. The Turks are already changing stuff just because of the chance that you'll let them in!

I am baffled, really.... What is it?

	07-10-2003 01:02									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I guess I must consider western human rights to be superior, and I would see it as a good thing if Turkey adopted our view on human rights. If it could then spread, all the better.

As for the torture thing, criminals sometimes arent allowed lawyers straight away and then they get tortured by the police. Theres many more....

	07-10-2003 01:06									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

With their population and growth thereof, a muslim society would soon be the strongest single force in the EU. Plus, it'd set an example for other muslim countries with similarly high population growth. I don't want them to decide the fate of my children.

	07-10-2003 01:08									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You can tell that to the ~35 million Muslims already in EU.

	07-10-2003 01:16									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Why not?
Simple: They will cost us money.

	07-10-2003 01:21									#26
	Suffering from ads?

Daniel, how would you describe german attitude towards the turks in general? I was lead to believe there was a lot of racism in Germany towards the turks. Is this true?

	07-10-2003 01:23									#27
	Remove this text

Turkey needs some serious reforms first. Get the military out of politics and settle the Kurdish and Cyprus questions.

	07-10-2003 01:30									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Human Rights Record? That would obligatorily change with the entrance to the EU, and you people know it. The Turks are already changing stuff just because of the chance that you'll let them in! I am baffled, really.... What is it?

Are they really? Can you point is to some sources? Last time I checked it was forbidden to speak Armenian/Kurdish in public. How can Europe let a repressive state like this into it's union? Please clarify.

How does Pan-Turanism sit with you as an alternate to Pan-Arabism?
edit: IMO neither is desireable for peace and security in the ME.

	07-10-2003 01:32									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Depends on who you aks

Their is some racism vs. turks or russians, mostly because of gangs that go around beating other ppl. up. or robbing them or both. Luckily close to non of these in my town. Its full of Leftist. Neonazis wouldnt survive a night going around in this town. Ones the NPD tryed to have a demonstration thrue town. There were about 150 Nazis (mostly coming from elsewhere), 30.000 Leftists and 2.000 police.

But there is some occasionall beat ups turks vs. russians going on. Mostly it seems to be drug related or vengance.

	07-10-2003 01:41									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Briefing Paper January 2003 Introduction The process of Turkey's accession to the E.U. has, since 1999, emerged as the most important catalyst of reform in Turkey. The E.U.'s progress report for 2001 made it clear that Turkey was lagging behind in its efforts to meet the E.U. accession conditions of "democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities." In 2002, the Turkish government seemed to get serious about meeting the criteria and enacted significant reforms in February and August which, among other things, abolished the death penalty, provided detainees with greater access to lawyers, and lifted restrictions on broadcasting in minority languages, including Kurdish.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/01/turky-bck013003.htm

If they have lifted broadcast restrictions, they must have lifted it for public speaking as well?

btw the people at human rights watch seem very pissed at turkey, but even they say reforms are happening and things are getting beter because of Turkeys possible entry into the eu.