11-07-2000 16:22									#1
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Just a little preview of Imperium Romanum 2.0. The basic idea is just the same as in V1.0: Starting only with Rome, and conquer the whole area around the Mediterrean (and a bit more, simply all cities) in 500 years.

But I´m still unsure about some details, and due to the limitations of civ, I´m afraid that I have to leave out too many things. For instance, in V1.0, I have as civs the Romans, Greeks, Macedonians, Persians, Carthagians, Germans and Gallics (or is it Gauls?). This is not bad for the start, but you can´t simulate some important changes in civ like the conquest of Asia by Alex the Great, the Hellenistic kingdoms after that or the fact that the Greeks in reality were independent Poleis, but not an united realm.

Currently I think I´ll summarize the Germans and the Gallics as Babarians, but I´m not sure what new civs I should include instead of these (now Barbarian) Germans and Gallics. Suggestions and comments are of course welcome.

Note:
The screenshot is made with the map of Cross&Crescent, but I´m searching for a better map, covering nearly the same areas as the little map in the upper left corner of the screenshot (perhaps a bit more space in the east and in the west).
The graphics in the game will also look a bit better, because this screenshot is converted from an 24bit image (with a little loss of quality).

	11-07-2000 16:28									#2
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Great work BB!!!
A suggestion... Capua is on Vesuvio's northern side. Hope this doesn't hurt you.

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Ave atque vale...

	11-07-2000 16:37									#3
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Hey, you are online at the moment?
Great, but I have to leave now...

For Capua: You are right, but the pic is just a sample image to show the "look" of this scn. With the new map, I´ll be more careful with the city locations.

	11-07-2000 16:57									#4
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I was just thinking, is it in English? Because I downloaded v1.0 and it was in German and I didn't know what was happening and the rules.txt and others weren't loading properly. Looks good!

Vale!

	12-07-2000 09:11									#5
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Need a nuraghe for Sardinian barbarians?
Just ask, i'm sardinian...

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Ave atque vale...

	11-07-2000 22:07									#6
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That's an awful lot of grassland and I'm sure Italy is more mountainous and hilly than that... but everything else looks great!

	12-07-2000 02:06									#7
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Thanks for the comments, guys!

Yes, ANZAC, an English version is planned...the requests for a translated version were one reason for me to make V2.0.

DarthVeda: The new map will have more different terrains (I hope... ).

Prometeus, a Nuraghe is something like an ancient Sardinian castle, right? Have you a pic for me (I´m not sure if I can include this, but it would be nice... )
And can you say something about the landscape in Italia (more hills or trees) in ancient times?

	12-07-2000 03:30									#8
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For sure, more trees in northern plain ( i.e. Pianura Padana ), in Central Italy ( the mighty Selva Cimina ) and south ( i.e. Basilicata ). There wasn't Po estuary, it developed in early Medieval Ages.... More trees in Sardinia, also.

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Ave atque vale...

	12-07-2000 11:32									#9
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What about adding another italian civ (I would suggest Etruscans)? It would be the first civ to swallow for the Romans, small (one or two cities) but with a rather powerfull army. The first challange for the rising power of Rome! I don't know if you plan to add generals but a Porsenna (King of the Etruscan) unit, very powerfull and tough to kill, could be nice.

	12-07-2000 12:43									#10
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Prometeus, I´ll place more trees there...

Sloth, your idea sounds very good! I could summarize different Italian/Mediterranean people in one civ (Etruscans, Samnites but also Illyrians or Epeirotes) with weak attackers, but good defenders (but not too strong for the rise of Rome. ).
Unfortunately I can´t add generals (not enough unit slots, and I´ll avoid multiple files)

	12-07-2000 13:01									#11
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Perfect! Your idea to summarize all the Italian civs is the best.
I look forward to play the scenario.
When you need playtesters....

	12-07-2000 15:32									#12
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Sloth, you are welcome as a tester, but a playable version needs still lots of work. Most of the artwork is done, but the events and, most important, the techtree is far from completition.
I´ll make a new topic when the scn is ready for a test.

	12-07-2000 15:50									#13
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No problem. I'll while away the time...with Cross&Crescent!

	12-07-2000 17:28									#14
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Whatever happened to the Egyptians? They played a key role in Rome's rise to power. Egypt itself was also a key supply of food to Rome in the Imperial days (you could have some super-productive squares there)

P.S. Looks great. Can't wait till it comes out.

	12-07-2000 20:48									#15
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I could make you a map of any area/size you want. All you have to do is ask.

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	12-07-2000 22:17									#16
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Thanks for your offer, St.Leo! But after I´ve read your posts in the "maps" thread, I played a bit with MapUtil. Here is the first try:
What would you say, are the coastlines ok? But all terrain squares have to be changed, because MapUtil turned them all into mountains... BTW, what is the size limit for civ2 maps? Any values higher than 75x130 caused an "Out of range" error in MapUtil. Is this the limit?

Oh, I forgot...Shadowstrike, you are right, I also thought about the Egyptians. But I´m not sure. They would be perfect "between" Carthage and Persia, but in reality they were occupied by Persians (the V1.0 started in 500 BC), later by Macedonians.
However, I think there were also some Egyptian revolts (one with support from Athen) against the Persians, or I start the V2.0 later...hard decisions!
[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited July 12, 2000).]

	12-07-2000 23:37									#17
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Well, it would- honestly said- be a stupid thing to include the Egyptians as an independent civ.
Try using Barbarian units first- revolts of 486-484 BC, 463-454 BC, independence period from 400-343 BC, revolt of 338-336 BC.
Afterwards the Egyptians were under Macedonian rule-including the Ptolemaean period of 304-31 BC.
It is a very stupid thing to cover this in one scenario-when are you thinking to start?

PS: The map looks awesome!

------------------
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30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
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	13-07-2000 05:48									#19
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BTW, what is the size limit for civ2 maps? Any values higher than 75x130 caused an "Out of range" error in MapUtil. Is this the limit?

The official line is a maximum of 10 000 tiles and MapUtil follows that rule, although the engine will actually support a slightly higher value.

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	13-07-2000 17:59									#20
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Make it start either in 470 BC, when the Romans and the Carthaginians signed their first treaty-or how about in the 350s? This would also allow you to add an independent Egyptian civ. Because both Persians and Macedonians must later conquer it, you should create an isolated Egyptian city, so that the civ wouldn't be destroyed entirely and can return after the ascendance of Ptolemaios (and perhaps the death of Artaxerxes III, but that's not as important).
When the Romans appear, destroy the Egyptian civ when they have conquered the last city or so.

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

	13-07-2000 18:28									#21
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BTW, if all land comes out as mountains, try substituting one of the darker greens for the ocean black.

------------------
St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	13-07-2000 19:19									#23
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My "vote" is still for an earlier date: the idea of starting with just one city intrigued me.
So...forget the Egyptians!!

	13-07-2000 19:51									#24
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Don´t worry about the Nuraghe, Prometeus, it was just an idea...

Stefan, currently I´m thinking of 396 BC (destruction of Veji) as the start year. This is close to the basic idea of V1.0, because Rome controlled some minor cities that time (for instance Alba Longa), but due to the map measurements (ähem...was heißt Maßstab), I´ll leave out these not so important cities (for the same reason I´ll leave out Ostia, and make Rome a coastal city), so that you have only Rome in the beginning.
A start in 396 BC would also allow me to include independent Egyptians and Persians. On the other hand, I would have to leave out the Hellenistic kingdoms after Alex the Great.
Therefore, my second idea is to start around 300BC with Romans, Carthagians, three Hellenistic realms, Mediterraneans and Parthians.
However, I like more the first idea...as you Sloth?
[This message has been edited by BeBro (edited July 13, 2000).]

	13-07-2000 19:59									#25
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Hurrah for the first idea!

	13-07-2000 22:19									#26
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"Maßstab" is "scale"

300 BC sounds alright... I'm checking the timeline right now... So the idea is to have only one city for the Romans, right? How 'bout 386 (Vae victis!), though?

------------------
Follow the masses!
30,000 lemmings can't be wrong!

Our survival is based on continouus changing.
-Mao Tse-Tung
God might have created us as equals, but democracy and science pretty
much screwed that whole idea..
-Onepaul


Visit my Homepage at: http://members.xoom.com/SHaertel/Index.html

	13-07-2000 22:35									#27
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just a note for you, BeBro:

Ostia wasn't the main roman port until the emperor Claude. They used mostly Pouzzoles in the Etruscian land. So, it would be better not using Ostia as a wonder (if it came to your mind )
And about the timeline, 386 (just after the Gallic sack of Rome) would be great.
The first great city Rome conquered (apart from Veii) was Capua (in 340-320, I'm not sure)which played a capital role in the roman conquest as the "elites" of the two cities associated. Latium+Campania was the center of the Roman republic during the third and second century BC.
[This message has been edited by Joseph K (edited July 13, 2000).]

	13-07-2000 23:08									#28
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Joseph and Stefan, I have to say that your idea is the best! Thanks, this will be mentioned in the credits !
386BC is simply perfect: I can start with Rome as the only city, Egyptians will be included and the will be attacked by the still powerful Persians. Macedonia is still weak but has the chance to develope itself into the most powerful civ in the east. The Greeks have many cities around the Mediterranean and Carthage rules the western part of the known world. The last civ will be a "collection" of the mentioned Etruscans, Samnites and so on.

	13-07-2000 23:40									#29
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St Leo, i need your hint about a ripoff series i'm developing; can i send you a few pics ( i have Eudora on my pc at the moment... )?

Sure, why not.

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St. Leo
http://ziggurat.sidgames.com/
http://www.sidgames.com/forums/

	14-07-2000 03:10									#30
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Aah, I forgot: the end will be in 117AD...