15-10-2003 17:04									#151
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@Tingkai who seems to wander away in his thoughts from common sense.

	15-10-2003 17:07									#152
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quote: Originally posted by Curiosity America has slid back in recent years... they're really about where they were in the late '50s in many respects. If that. A vigorous space program could leapfrog the US within a decade. Not that China is likely to try, though.

I partially agree with you, but I wouldn't say the US has slid back. It is just stagnating. 30 years ago they had skylab, after the Russian did it, now they're still working on its repacement.

Unfortunately, the US government prefers to spend hundreds of billions of dollars invading and occupying other countries.

Imagine what the US could have done with the billions that Junior is wasting on Iraq.

Meanwhile China is moving forward, creating jobs for engineers and scientists, developing real knowledge of technology, establishing a high-tech industry, creating goals for kids to pursue, opening the way for further economic growth.

China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States.

	15-10-2003 19:09									#153
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Congrats China!

The next milestone is much more expensive.

	15-10-2003 19:14									#154
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quote: China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States.

nah. NASA and the soviets were breaking ground. China is treading on a well-known path.

	15-10-2003 21:06									#155
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Way to go, China!

	15-10-2003 21:11									#156
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quote: Originally posted by DanS And much of it is just a rebadged Russian product.

According to the New York Times, the Chinese purchased what was basically an empty shell of a Soyuz, so quite a bit of the technology was Chinese-designed.

quote: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/14/science/space/14CHIN.html?pagewanted=2&8bl They didn't buy a whole Soyuz," said Mr. Clark, who writes space books and articles from Britain. "It was a descent module stripped of innards, so mostly a shell." The Chinese also bought a life-support system, he added, and a pressurized suit for wearing inside the spacecraft. Experts said the Chinese carefully studied and adapted Russian gear to their own needs. "They had to build and test and prove everything themselves," said Mr. Oberg, who lives near Houston. "So most of the similarities are superficial. The one exception is the suit. It copies the Russian design down to the stitching pattern."

	15-10-2003 21:23									#157
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I'm referring to the larger product. The astronauts were trained in Russia, etc. Also, the lead rocket designer and I'm sure many/most others are Russian-trained.

Of course, this isn't bad. Why reinvent the wheel?

	15-10-2003 21:38									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: China's space program will create results that will benefit the country, just as NASA did for the States. nah. NASA and the soviets were breaking ground. China is treading on a well-known path.

Now this could be a typical comment from a loser who tries to justifies his failure by success of others.

Or it could be ironic complacency.

There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians.

Thankfully, that attitude no longer rules.

	15-10-2003 21:45									#159
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'm referring to the larger product. The astronauts were trained in Russia, etc. Also, the lead rocket designer and I'm sure many/most others are Russian-trained. Of course, this isn't bad. Why reinvent the wheel?

True.

Sure, Russia provided the initial jump start in knowledge and from there the Chinese developed a better system. It's similar to the jump start the Americans received from German knowledge. That doesn't diminish the incredible accomplishment achieved by the US, what I consider the shining example of what American society can achieve.

	15-10-2003 22:15									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Straybow My understanding was that the maglev was a project undertaken by a German enr & constr firm,

Sorry, you missed my point. My point was that China is the first country to have an operating mag-lev passenger line. Germans and Japanese created the tech, but only built test tracks.

As for Shanghai's train, A German company provided the technology and the first train. Chinese built the tracks, and are now building the other "rolling" stock.

quote: and the tallest building under construction (Union Square Phase 7 due in 2007) is in continuation of a pre-takeover Hong Kong project.

Actually, the tallest under construction is the Shanghai World Financial Center in Pudong, Shanghai, scheduled to be completed in 2007 (some sources say 2005). It will stand at 492 m (1,624 ft), with 101 stories.

quote: China was admitted to the WTO in hopes of leveraging diplomatic influence to improve workers rights and induce freedom of trade.

I agree, but the point is the significance of joining in terms of China's coming of age internationally.

quote: Everybody knows IOC members were falling for the wine, women & song routine (and a few bribes to close the deal) all through the '90s. Can the World Expo be that different?

Undoubtedly that occurred! Wine, women, and song is a standard business operating procedure in China. But again, the symbolism is very significant. Nobody remembers the problems associated with the Crystal Palace Exhibition.

quote: As for the Three Gorges Dam ...

I, too, fear for the potentially massive environmental problems associated with the project. But again, the point was they are building the largest dam and hydroelectric powerplant in the history of man.

As I said in my original post, "Taken together it's pretty impressive, (...) a great symbolic turning point in Chinese (and world) history."

	15-10-2003 22:17									#161
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quote: It's similar to the jump start the Americans received from German knowledge.

Not very similar. So far, in an 11-year time-frame, the Chinese have have matched what the Russians did 45 years ago, not surpassed it, as both the US and USSR teams did within 10 years of obtaining the German technology.

	15-10-2003 22:39									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Now this could be a typical comment from a loser who tries to justifies his failure by success of others.

My failure to build a space rocket is killing me from the inside.

quote: Or it could be ironic complacency.

Complacent? Should I be worried about something? WTG to China for the success in launching a human into orbit, but that stuff was done 40 years ago, and all the spinoff technologies and practices have been used for quite some time. It's a necessary step in space exploration, but it'll hardly bring the benefits the first space exploration brought.

quote: There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians. Thankfully, that attitude no longer rules.

I am not saying China shouldn't progress into space. Indeed, that Chinese complacency is what allowed the west to rule the world for hundreds of years now, through the onset of modern times, to this very day. However, what I am saying is this step is hardly significant, in terms of real progress. To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more.


Oh, and the comparison with German knowledge is not in place. Did the Germans reach space?

	15-10-2003 22:44									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai There was a time when China was exploring the high seas, but then they stopped because they figured what was the point. Been there, done that. Nothing out there, but a bunch of worthless barbarians.

Uh, I don't think that's true. The fleet was destroyed due, primarily, to political in-fighting at the imperial court.

Far from "been there, done that", the dealings with the "barbarians" brought vast riches to China, so profitable that the court eunuchs who were running the show became very wealthy and powerful. According to Louise Levathes' well-documented "When China Ruled the Seas", the reasons for the decline of the fleet were:

* Conflict at the court between the Confucian officials and the wealthy eunuchs (the Confucians gained the upper hand and were able to have the fleet burned and shipyards abandoned. They were able to enact law that disallowed the construction of multi-masted sea-going vessels).
* Opening of the Grand Canal precipitated a shift in the focus of ship-building from sea-going vessels to canal-faring barges
* Extreme inflation (Ming paper money lost 99% of its value) ruined international trade
* The threat of the Mongols (who had recently captured the Emporer himself!) required re-allocating military resources from coastal activities to Great Wall-centered efforts.

The saddest chapter occurred later when a eunuch official demanded all of the records of the "Treasure Fleet" in an attempt to rekindle interest in voyaging abroad. In response, the Vice President of the Ministry of War ordered all of the records to be either hidden or destroyed. All of the priceless documentation was lost forever.

Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.

	15-10-2003 22:50									#164
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quote: Originally postedby Azazel To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more. .

Is someone saying that? I dont' think anyone is claiming that it proves China's technological superiority. It's really a coming-of-age statement.

quote: Oh, and the comparison with German knowledge is not in place. Did the Germans reach space?

I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.

Edit: added second quote & response

	15-10-2003 22:55									#165
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye quote: Originally postedby Azazel To say that the fact that China launched a man into orbit, while, say, France, didn't, is a sign of China's technological superiority over France is pure rethoric, nothing more. . Is someone saying that? I dont' think anyone is claiming that it proves China's technological superiority. It's really a coming-of-age statement.

coming-of-age as what?

	15-10-2003 23:00									#166
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel coming-of-age as what?

Dude, have you read this thread? Coming of age as a major player in the international community, complete with modern technological expertise.

(Note: I edited my previous post while you were posting. Sorry!)

	15-10-2003 23:21									#167
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Well, I always considered China a major player in the International community. Of course, this step gives them lots of prestige, and respect, since it's an obvious great achievement. HOWEVER, it still doesn't change two facts: China is still not an alternative superpower, nor does it fit into the 1st world living criteria ( and yes, I know that many people live there as if they were 1st worlders )

quote: I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.

What do you mean by 'tarnish'? Of course, all knowledge is based on previous knowledge. It does however render it marginal, since no actual progress was achieved. Nothing new or exceptional was done.



Look, people, I am not saying that this isn't great. I am very happy that China got a person in space. HOWEVER, I am saying that there is nothing amazing in it.

Btw, did Japan try to launch a person into space or am I mistaken?

	16-10-2003 05:51									#168
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impressive

even if they did copy off the russians

	16-10-2003 06:02									#169
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japan has never tried on its own. it's sent 'em up on other countries' rockets.

	16-10-2003 06:20									#170
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye I think his point was that the US entry into space was not accomplished solely trough American expertise, just as China used technical expertise from elsewhere. As he said, this did not tarnish the American achievement, and neither should it tarnish China's.

Yeah, don't forget that the US profited mightily from the cancellation of Canada's Avro Arrow Program.

	16-10-2003 06:39									#171
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quote: Japan, Germany, UK, France, to name a few

Eh, Canada has a space program.

	16-10-2003 06:42									#172
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What I'm most interested in, is what China has planned for the future.

This flight doesn't interest me that much. But what do they plan on doing now they can reach space?

	16-10-2003 07:25									#173
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quote: coming-of-age as what?

A world power, circa 1950.

quote: Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.

	16-10-2003 08:02									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Within a generation China went from world's foremost seapower to being defenceless against marauding Japanese pirates who raided at will.

Actually, the "Japanese Pirates" where Chinee on Taiwan.

	16-10-2003 08:43									#175
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quote: Actually, the "Japanese Pirates" where Chinee on Taiwan.

Some of them were, but there were also actual Japanese pirates, operating out of Kyushu and the Inland Sea.

	16-10-2003 08:47									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What I'm most interested in, is what China has planned for the future. This flight doesn't interest me that much. But what do they plan on doing now they can reach space?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/space/...race/index.html

quote: If all goes well with the early manned flights, the Chinese plan to launch a satellite to the moon within three years. After that, China plans to launch a space station. The goal is to establish a permanent outpost on the moon within 15 years.

	16-10-2003 09:07									#177
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Congratulations to China on the successful trip, and welcome to the club!

	16-10-2003 09:29									#178
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well if they make a manned flight to the moon, I will be very, very impressed.

I may even move to China

Trips to the moon require a much bigger rocket and a lot more complicated operations. Reaching orbit is actually fairly easy now days. But getting to the surface of the moons is still not routine.

	16-10-2003 12:50									#179
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I am dearly hoping that this will encourage us to get off our asses and back into it.

We really have to get off this rock.

	16-10-2003 14:49									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: America has slid back in recent years... they're really about where they were in the late '50s in many respects. If that. Don't remember those late 50's space stations.

Remember Skylab, built using Saturn V hardware? Yes, 60's rather than 50's... but there were no technological leaps in between. And the Saturn V was pretty much the pinacle of US orbital launch technology.

For a comparison with the 50's - remember the X-15 project? The recent X-34 was extremely similar, yet it failed utterly where dragging a piece of hardware out of a museum would have fulfilled most of the project requirements.