12-10-2003 09:19									#61
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quote: Bush will land in Japan on the 17th. He's staying two days.

If he's only here for two days, I doubt he'll leave Tokyo. Damn Kanto bias...

	12-10-2003 09:22									#62
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Americans are always good for a laugh. They constantly feel threatened by everyone.

The funniest bit are the Americans criticising the Chinese for lacking originality and innovation, while at the same time arguing the Chinese shouldn't do anything new for China because it has been done before.

Next they'll be saying the Chinese shouldn't train pilots because its been done before.

	12-10-2003 09:25									#63
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quote: Next they'll be saying the Chinese shouldn't train pilots because its been done before.

I ,for one, hope they start training their pilots. I don't want anymore American planes getting knocked out of the sky by idiot Chinese hot-shots.

	12-10-2003 09:31									#64
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quote: The funniest bit are the Americans criticising the Chinese for lacking originality and innovation, while at the same time arguing the Chinese shouldn't do anything new for China because it has been done before.

I think you're referring to me. I didn't say that China lacked originality and innovation. Indeed, I said the opposite. There are areas in science where China is strong, so why not do something to highlight those areas and do a "first"?

	12-10-2003 10:07									#65
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Oh you teach in English in Japan?

	12-10-2003 15:44									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think you're referring to me. I didn't say that China lacked originality and innovation. Indeed, I said the opposite. There are areas in science where China is strong, so why not do something to highlight those areas and do a "first"?

There's very little innovation or originality in China. All there modern things are designed by other countries. The only things that can be claimed to be Chinese are over a thousand years old. There doesn't seem to be much change here in that regard. Slowly the country is looking more and more like a mix of Europe, Japan, and America. I try to encourage more creative thinking in my classes. My students are bright, but they're simply not used to it.

As for the space program, I'm certain that will be a success. The Chinese know when not to mess around. Especially with so much riding on it. True the price of failure is far greater than the rewards of success, but they've committed themselves to it.

	12-10-2003 18:34									#67
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As I've said before, China will never be taken seriously by other nations until it develops two mainstays:

1. A World Cup champion team.

And

2. A world renowned porn star.

For your information, people like Asia Carrera, Jade Hsu, Tera Patrick, and Leanna Lei do not count as Chinese talent. Even those who may be ethnically Chinese still made it big through the machinations of the American Pornographic Exploration Program by hitching a ride on American made rockets.

	12-10-2003 18:46									#68
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I saw a girl in my school who looked exactly like your picture a few days ago. Have you been to Hangzhou recently, or am I just spending too much time on s'poly?

	12-10-2003 19:01									#69
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quote: Even those who may be ethnically Chinese still made it big through the machinations of the American Pornographic Exploration Program by hitching a ride on American made rockets.

I think I found the "American-made rockets" line to be funnier than it actually was, but what the hell?

	12-10-2003 19:09									#70
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ali's funny.

	12-10-2003 19:44									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia As I've said before, China will never be taken seriously by other nations until it develops two mainstays: 1. A World Cup champion team. And 2. A world renowned porn star. For your information, people like Asia Carrera, Jade Hsu, Tera Patrick, and Leanna Lei do not count as Chinese talent. Even those who may be ethnically Chinese still made it big through the machinations of the American Pornographic Exploration Program by hitching a ride on American made rockets.

this is the sort of attitude that will give us world peace

	12-10-2003 19:53									#72
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quote: Originally posted by DanS The Chinese government should find a way to bring them home and do something insanely great with them.

More professionals and students are returning these days. The brain drain is still significant, but the tide is turning.

quote: Originally posted by Skywalker Do you really think that this spaceflight is going to do anything helpful towards democracy (or really, anything helpful for the Chinese people at all?)

I cannot imagine why so many are so unclear on this. As we've discussed around here before, it's quite clearly a Chinese pride thing. Even the Chinese government is packaging it that way. There is no question from anyone that the space program is intended Number One as a jewel in China's development crown. You should not underestimate the importance of "face" in Chinese culture.

Think about it - in a single ten year span, you have:
* China hosting APEC
* China joining WTO
* Beijing hosting the Olympics (2008)
* Shanghai hosting the World Expo (2010)
* Construction of the largest dam and hydroelectric project in human history
* World's first maglev passenger train
* World's 3rd tallest building (2002) and soon, THE tallest (2005).
... and, assuming all goes well,
* Manned space flight

Taking together it's pretty impressive. Historians will look back on this time, not to laud any science gained, but as one a great symbolic turning point in Chinese (and world) history. I think any potential value from space exploration beyond the symbolic is seen as a bonus.

quote: ]Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Holding a press conference to "welcome China to 1958" would be great fun

Hmm, if you compare the maglev railway where I live with Amtrak anywhere in the US, I'm not so sure who would be welcoming who to 1958.

	12-10-2003 19:57									#73
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quote: Hmm, if you compare the maglev railway where I live with Amtrak anywhere in the US, I'm not so sure who would be welcoming who to 1958.

What kind of fool looks to the U.S. to find the bleeding edge in train technology?

	12-10-2003 20:14									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai (my emphasis added) Americans are always good for a laugh. They constantly feel threatened by everyone. The funniest bit are the Americans criticising the Chinese for lacking originality and innovation, while at the same time arguing the Chinese shouldn't do anything new for China because it has been done before.

Please stop fondling that straw man. "While at the same time"? Can you quote anyone in this thread who has held those two positions? I didn't think so.

As for lacking originality, imagination, or innovation, I stand by my comments. I have closely studied this for more than a couple of years now, and talked about it a great deal with others living here. If you look across a broad scope of Chinese life, including, literature, film, television, fine arts, technology, marketing and advertising, business, architecture, fashion, music, and social behavior from national down to individual scale, there is a consistant and striking lack of imagination and originality in comparison to westerners. I don't intend this as criticism, but as simple observation.

quote: Originally posted by DaShi I try to encourage more creative thinking in my classes. My students are bright, but they're simply not used to it.

Hey DaShi! I do the same. However, it is striking when confronted by those students who appear genuinely unable to imagine an answer slightly out of the expected. This really startled me when I first encountered it.

	12-10-2003 20:21									#75
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quote: Originally posted by DanS There are areas in science where China is strong, so why not do something to highlight those areas and do a "first"?

Would be a great idea. I think Chinese are most innovative in practical and technical things. It appears that China is becoming a world leader in agricultural biotech. This would be a good area in which to build their own, new Wonder.

	12-10-2003 20:22									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia As I've said before, China will never be taken seriously by other nations until it develops two mainstays: 1. A World Cup champion team. And 2. A world renowned porn star.

My personal yardstick is the appearance of a Chinese Nina Hagen.

	12-10-2003 20:24									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten What kind of fool looks to the U.S. to find the bleeding edge in train technology?

Uh, I dunno, maybe the kind of fool that would look to the People's Republic of China for the bleeding edge of space technology?

	12-10-2003 20:26									#78
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quote: I cannot imagine why so many are so unclear on this. As we've discussed around here before, it's quite clearly a Chinese pride thing. Even the Chinese government is packaging it that way. There is no question from anyone that the space program is intended Number One as a jewel in China's development crown. You should not underestimate the importance of "face" in Chinese culture.

So "face" is important. It's worthless. If they aren't going to do anything more with it, it is just stupid pride.

	12-10-2003 20:36									#79
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quote: Hey DaShi! I do the same. For some of my students, it appears not so much that they they can do it, but are not used to it. It's more like they are unable. This really startled me when I first encountered it.

I guess I just have this romantic notion that China could be as energetic as the US was when we were rising. From 1870-1914, much of the insanely great scientific stuff was happening in the US. Really, the attitude was present well before the foundation of the US, with Ben Franklin.

China has the scale to test out a lot of these scientific advances. But maybe they just aren't ready for it. Maybe we'll continue to be the testbed for things like the internet. Maybe India will surpass China in this regard.

	12-10-2003 20:44									#80
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker So "face" is important. It's worthless.

Got it. On behalf of the World's Citizens, thank you for settling that.

By the way, I'm not sure many of your compatriots share your views on national pride being "stupid".

	12-10-2003 20:51									#81
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I guess I just have this romantic notion that China could be as energetic as the US was when we were rising. From 1870-1914, much of the insanely great scientific stuff was happening in the US.

Well, who knows what will happen here next? What's happening now was certainly hard to predict.

In the past, China has had periods of rich artistic and scientific innovation. My problem is that I cannot determine if what I see now is a relatively recent phenomena, or if it is a culture feature thousands of years old. Were the previous periods of startling innovation due to a small number of people at the right place at the right time? A temporary cultural, social, historical, or political phenomena? Or has some change happened to the Chinese mindset? I don't have an answer or even a good guess on this point.

quote: Maybe India will surpass China in this regard.

That would not surprise me.

	12-10-2003 20:55									#82
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I like your way of questioning and observing.

As for India, I have been very impressed with the professional Indians that I have come across. Of course, there is a lot of selection bias going on for me. They just need to change their system/society slightly so that it works, on the whole.

	12-10-2003 20:57									#83
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi There's very little innovation or originality in China. All there modern things are designed by other countries.

Hm.

Hybrid rice developed by a Chinese agricultural scientist doubled the yield of production per unit area for rice. Just in the April of this year, Chinese scientists decoded the genetic secrets of rice by successfully creating its genome map.

I don't think anybody here on 'Poly has the kind of knowledge to make such a sweeping judgement like yours.

	12-10-2003 20:58									#84
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quote: I don't think anybody here on 'Poly has the kind of knowledge to make such a sweeping judgement like yours.

Your obviously forgetting about MtG.

	12-10-2003 21:01									#85
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quote: Just in the April of this year, Chinese scientists decoded the genetic secrets of rice by successfully creating its genome map.

It had already been done and was available for public download.

	12-10-2003 21:03									#86
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quote: Originally posted by mindseye [q] Originally posted by Tingkai (my emphasis added) As for lacking originality, imagination, or innovation, I stand by my comments. I have closely studied this for more than a couple of years now, and talked about it a great deal with others living here. If you look across a broad scope of Chinese life, including, literature, film, television, fine arts, technology, marketing and advertising, business, architecture, fashion, music, and social behavior from national down to individual scale, there is a consistant and striking lack of imagination and originality in comparison to westerners.

I can't vouch for other areas, but I know firsthand that there's a lot of experiments going on in the fine arts, or at least in traditional Chinese painting.

Attempting new things is good, but you can't just make the attempts for the sake of making these attempts, or you end up with crap instead.

	12-10-2003 21:09									#87
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quote: It had already been done and was available for public download.

How long ago? If they managed to replicate a Western achievement in the same decade, that would still be a step up for them.

	12-10-2003 21:13									#88
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China was part of the consortium that did it last year. They did 1 chromosome. Taiwan also did 1 chromosome.

By comparison, Japan did 6 chromosomes and the US did 3 chromosomes. Of course, the shotgun method of sequencing is American technology and process. The rice was a Japanese strain. A good deal of the spade work was done by Syngenta (Swiss) and Monsanto (US).

http://rgp.dna.affrc.go.jp/rgp/Dec18_NEWS.html

	12-10-2003 21:14									#89
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Japan bests China once again. Hooray!

	12-10-2003 21:16									#90
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It had already been done.

Afraid you have mistaken it for something else. The Chinese is the first to sequence the rice genome.