13-10-2003 05:20									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Castro Bush

Saint Marcus

Templar

	13-10-2003 05:21									#152
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quote: Originally posted by laurentius Castro is awesome leader and personality. Theres some dark sides of his cuba too but in generally it's far more humane/good that america is to its citizens

Yea, that's why no one in America ever goes to live in Cuba while some Cubans risk their lives to get here.

	13-10-2003 05:26									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Odin You call voter intimidation democracy?

We call it "Cuba".

	13-10-2003 05:28									#154
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY Oh, maybe I missed it, what was again the danger cuba represents to the US exactly?

They are still on the losing side of the Cold War, and America cannot tolerate a loser.

	13-10-2003 05:31									#155
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Long live Fidel! Long live democratic Cuba!

I'll agree with the second part as soon as there is democracy in Cuba. I can't believe you would support these scum just because they agree with your bizarre political ideology.

	13-10-2003 05:36									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander They are still on the losing side of the Cold War, and America cannot tolerate a loser.

?????

If it's irony, the point's a bit elusive. If it's not irony, as an answer to the question, it's crap.

	13-10-2003 05:39									#157
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider If more countries began thinking about things like democracy, and the living standards of it's citizens, they wouldn't allow America to steal their resources any longer and we would just be in a bad, bad situation. Cuba sets a very dangerous example.

Steal their resources? Their pissed because we won't buy their stuff. Communist Cuba has raised a big stink for decades because we won't buy their sh!t. Think about it. Why would a people's paradise need to sell its sh!t to the Great Satan? Because they can't make a go of their economy without an input of cash from a capitalist country that knows how to do things. Russia had the same problem, which is why Lenin and Stalin vastly increased the number of people from capitalist countries to build factories. They also used immense quantities of capital from the west in order to industrialize. Yet this industrialization was hailed as great achievement of communism. It was merely a medicore achievement of authoritarianism.

quote: Originally posted by monkspider That's rightists for ya, they love democracy so long as it represents the interests of their favorite transnational corporations.

When these "rightists" (who the hell has a favorite transnational anyway?) are all murdered in their beds by the fanatics who were created by your propoganda and you are killed by accident by one of them as well, you will go to hell. Ha ha. No chance for repentence then.

	13-10-2003 05:40									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Odin If Cuba allowed "free" elections the US would give tons of mony to the rightist parties and let the Cuban-American terrorists beat up Castro supporters, basically Contra episode 2. The only reason there are travel restrictions is that the corporate elite don't want people discovering that the propaganda they are feeding people is BS. Most of those "political dissidents" are probably conected to the Cuban-American terrorists in Miami.

You need to get out of Bugtussel and circulate a bit. It might do wonders for your paranoia.

	13-10-2003 05:46									#159
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon are u objecting to ppl have infinite wants on some vague, I bet its not infinite basis. or do u not believe in consumerism.

The only reason people have so many wants is from advertising creating demand where it is not needed. Capitalism only works because people are tricked into buying things they don't really need via advertising.

Sikander: Bugtussel?

	13-10-2003 05:58									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Well, if the US stops hassling him Castro would have no reason to be so paranoid and his record would surely improve.

In part because he is too afraid of losing control domestically without having the U.S. as a bogeyman lever to whip up his own people. Bush floated a trial balloon about lifting the embargo early in his administration and Castro immediately started up the hostile propoganda machine. Similar incidents occurred during the Clinton and even Carter administrations.

quote: Originally posted by Agathon There are millions of street children in the world - not one of them is Cuban.

Absolute bullshit. I talked to a bunch of guys when I was in the Bahamas a couple of years ago. They travel to Cuba regularly because of the cheap everything (everything that they have of course), especially prostitutes. There are large numbers of young (like 15) teenage girls who prostititute themselves for very little, sometimes a pair of jeans or something in barter for one night with an older man. They aren't on the street only because they will be arrested, not because they have a place of their own. They often spend the night with tourists in order to avoid getting picked up by the police, a practice which has resulted in surveillance and even bed checks in some hotel frequented by westerners.

Oh, and if you love it so much why don't you move there? Why keep moving to countries that you hate? What an opportunity to walk the walk rather than just talking the talk. Or would the presence of so many non-intellectual prostitutes bore an intellectual prostitute like yourself?

	13-10-2003 06:00									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon And another question. If the United States is so concerned about Cuba's record on human rights and the embargo is in place for that reason, why does the US not place an embargo on China which has conducted massacres of its own citizens captured on television?

And why do you move a stone from your pathway, but leave a mountain there and go around?

	13-10-2003 07:14									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The only reason people have so many wants is from advertising creating demand where it is not needed. Capitalism only works because people are tricked into buying things they don't really need via advertising. Sikander: Bugtussel?

how can u determine if they want it or not? u mean if they didnt know it existed they wouldn't want it? perfect precept for communism i guess.

	13-10-2003 07:56									#163
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quote: The only reason people have so many wants is from advertising creating demand where it is not needed. Capitalism only works because people are tricked into buying things they don't really need via advertising.

Let me beat Ming to this one...

	13-10-2003 08:42									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander And why do you move a stone from your pathway, but leave a mountain there and go around?

Becuase the metaphor does not work in this scenerio?

After all, why keep the stone small, but work to enlarge the mountain? And other irrelevant metaphors that avoid the valid question?

	13-10-2003 20:26									#165
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Since no one has any ideas, let me suggest we do have a prior example: Noriega. A massive helicopter/airborne assault directed at Castro himself. We get the head of the snake, Cuba falls.

Thereafter, we should end the embargo and allow the exiles to return to run an interrim goverment, pending elections in about a year.

What we do with Castro is something I still have not settled on. I think the best solution is to hold him pending trial by the new government. Alternatively, we put him on trial by the ICC or some similar international body for crimes against humanity. I think we could find numerous witnesses to the slaughter he conducted right after he took power. Also we could find numerous victims of torture, etc., imprisoned for political crimes.

As to timing: next October, for obvious reasons.

	13-10-2003 20:44									#166
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Has anyone mentioned that Castro will still be in power in 2005, but Bush probably will not. :P

	13-10-2003 20:50									#167
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Kid, it all depends on whether the people like Bush removing Castro. The only problem I see is if he pulls a Saddam or Osama and disappears. Now that may cost Bush the election.

	13-10-2003 20:52									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Has anyone mentioned that Castro will still be in power in 2005, but Bush probably will not. :P

Has anyone mentioned that wouldn't matter if it were even true?

	13-10-2003 20:59									#169
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, it all depends on whether the people like Bush removing Castro.

.

What are you talking about Ned?

	13-10-2003 21:18									#170
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Kid, You and many others appear not to have listened to Bush. He said that "Cuba will soon be free." The whole point of this thread is the statement by Bush that he plans to end the Castro dictatorship. The thread degenerated into the typical communism is good/bad thread, depending on your point of view. No one has seriously discussed Bush's message.

The question really is this: How will Bush do this? I have been thinking about it for a couple of days now. For a number of reasons, I think the Noriega plan is the only one that will work.

	13-10-2003 22:18									#171
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quote: Originally posted by Ned He said that "Cuba will soon be free."

I say the world will soon be communist. That doesn't mean I'm ready to attack Washington.

	13-10-2003 22:42									#172
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Bush is going to attack Cuba!

say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.

	14-10-2003 02:05									#173
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Well, if Bush said it, that settles it. After all, didn't he say we'd get Osama dead or alive?

So the US is going to invade Cuba. With what? When half your combat strength is performing higher priority tasks like riding shotgun for Halliburton contractors or protecting pipelines and banks, that doesn't leave much for toppling Fidel. Oh, maybe he can use Reserve & NG brigades...that'll go over great with the electorate.

Even for an administration as relentlessly out of touch with reality as this one is, this is loony.

	14-10-2003 03:02									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The only reason people have so many wants is from advertising creating demand where it is not needed. Capitalism only works because people are tricked into buying things they don't really need via advertising. Sikander: Bugtussel?

I don't really need a car. I don't really need a computer. I don't really need civ (wait a second, what am I saying?! ). The point is, I want these things.

	14-10-2003 03:03									#175
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Becuase the metaphor does not work in this scenerio? After all, why keep the stone small, but work to enlarge the mountain? And other irrelevant metaphors that avoid the valid question?

Because, even though we do not live in a perfect world, do not complain when people try to make it more perfect.

	14-10-2003 03:04									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I say the world will soon be communist. That doesn't mean I'm ready to attack Washington.

You do not lead the world's most powerful country

	14-10-2003 04:11									#177
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker I don't really need a car. I don't really need a computer. I don't really need civ (wait a second, what am I saying?! ). The point is, I want these things.

There is a diference between needs and wants. In the US most people need a car. A lot of people need computers for thier jobs as well. What I am trying to say is that ads turn people into impulse buyers when they are buying luxury items like computer games and home PCs. I am not saying don't buy luxury goods, I am saying that capitalism makes people overdo it on luxury goods. Why do you think so many people are in debt? Maybe because they spent more then they earned because of advertisment?

	14-10-2003 04:17									#178
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Kidicious needs to stay off the LSD.
He be trippin' waaay too heavily.

	14-10-2003 05:25									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Why would a people's paradise need to sell its sh!t to the Great Satan?

Because even socialist countries need to trade with one another.

Using your criteria, the U.S. economy is a piece of **** because it can't produce everthing it wants/needs and must spend over a hundred billion each year buying from other countries. It's a totaly BS argument.

	14-10-2003 05:35									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Since no one has any ideas, let me suggest we do have a prior example: Noriega. A massive helicopter/airborne assault directed at Castro himself. We get the head of the snake, Cuba falls. Thereafter, we should end the embargo and allow the exiles to return to run an interrim goverment, pending elections in about a year.

1st off, the American people would not tollerate an attack on Cuba. Unlike the extreme rabid conservatives like yourself, the vast majority of Americans favor normalized relations with Cuba, something we'd have had long ago were it not for the grip of the Miami terrorists (and I mean terrorists) on American politics. But they blew their wad on Elian, and they can now be safely ignored.

2nd, the Cuban people are extremely nationalistic. Even if they didn't want Castro, they'd fight the Americans with everything they had. Even before we pushed Castro to the Communists, the US was hated in Cuba, for their role in sabotaging Cuban independence in the Spanish American War, for stuffing the hated Platt Amendment down their thoats, for running Cuba like a colony, for forcing various dictators on them, and for invading Cuba every time we felt like it for 60 years.

3rd, while most of the exile community here in the US is here for jobs (like most immigrants), those that are political, the gusanos, are especially hated back in Cuba. They would be as welcome as Chalabi, especailly considering the damage and death they've caused in Cuba over the past forty years. From burning crops to poisoning animals to blowing up airliners to planting bombs in rural highways, the Cuban exiles have made themselves very unwelcome in Cuba.

Yes, Cuba is such a hell hole that tens of thousands of Cuban-Americans go home to visit every year. They just have to keep quiet about it here in the U.S., let they be targetted by the gusanos and have their homes and businesses burned down. Yep, the gusanos not only practice terrorism abroad, they do it here in the U.S. too.