17-10-2003 23:19									#211
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem However thrilled the Cubans will be at the first sight of their Liberators pales when compared to how they'll be feeling when it sinks in that they'll be expected to reimburse their benefactors. But then, going about the world doing good doesn't come cheap. Dropping that annoying free health care, among other things, will help the Cubans get their priorities in better order.

Actually, the free health care is highly attractive to businesses who could invest in Cuba without having to pick up the health care costs of their employees as they do in the United States.

Liberate Cuba!

	17-10-2003 23:21									#212
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quote: Originally posted by JCG Oh yeah....the Cubans WOULD fight a US Invasion, certainly...even if the US could basically bomb and/or occupy every single mile in the island, lots will resist and it won't be a very nice sight...Castro may be far from the "best" possible leader/regime for the Cubans, but certainly (at least somewhat rightly) they think he's better than whatever Bush tries to force on them by military pressure this late in the game...

Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom! I have a hard time understanding why the common man would fight so hard for slavery.

	18-10-2003 00:49									#213
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Ned, by any chance did you have anything to do with forming US plans for the Vietnam War?

	18-10-2003 02:07									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom! I have a hard time understanding why the common man would fight so hard for slavery.

Because, despite all the stuff that is evidently wrong with it, it is NOT slavery and actually gives SOME tangible benefits to the common (non-opposition) man (as opposed to the standard capitalist-republic, which doesn't unless you're a world power/superpower or the "darling" of one of those....and we're talking Third World here).

In essence, many Cubans, while they may not exactly adore Castro's guts, appear to think that "better the devil you know" (of course, it doesn't help that they also knew the OTHER devil once, or at least one of its faces...and aren't/weren't exactly pleased with it back then)...

Btw, I'm not defending this position; just trying to explain it. Big difference.

If any "liberation" was to be done, it would have been much easier under Eisenhower or Kennedy (if he actually cared less about his PR and more about the issue at hand, for example...the USSR didn't make such considerations when they invaded some of their satellites), for example.

	18-10-2003 04:39									#215
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why would they fight if they know that they are not defending Cuba from conquest by a hostile power, but instead are defending communism from freedom.

Because they'd know that they were defending themselves from conquest by a hostile foreign power, and that despite the problems with their system, it's better than what they had when Americans ran the country last time. Plus, they can look around the rest of the Caribbean and see that they are better off than everyone else, even if they don't have what Americans call a democracy.

Lord only know's why I try and explain these things to Ned. He's congenitally incapable of believing me.

	18-10-2003 14:50									#216
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because they'd know that they were defending themselves from conquest by a hostile foreign power, and that despite the problems with their system, it's better than what they had when Americans ran the country last time. Plus, they can look around the rest of the Caribbean and see that they are better off than everyone else, even if they don't have what Americans call a democracy. Lord only know's why I try and explain these things to Ned. He's congenitally incapable of believing me.

Actually, there is a very good argument for not simply withdrawing from Cuba after "liberation," and that is Peuto Rico. We should give the Cubans the option of becoming Americans with the same status as Peuto Rico, a full fledged State, or completely independent.

Looking back at history, it was a tragic mistake for Congress to pass a statute that we could not annex Cuba from Spain just to show the world that we were liberating Cuba then. We had no such pledge wrt Peuto Rico. And, look at what happened. Peuto Rico is one of the best of the Latin America "countries." Cuba is the worst - except for perhaps Haiti.

Also, I really enjoy Che and others stating with such certainty that the people of Cuba would fight us because the hate Americans, etc., etc., etc. What one sees in virtually ever formerly-communist country is an immense love and appreciation for the US. Who is Europe beside Britain was more behind us in the recent war? No one excelled in pro-American zeal than the formerly communist countries.

	18-10-2003 15:31									#217
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Poor analogy. The eastern European satellites had their governments imposed on them from outside (except Yugoslavia). Those "governments" were essentially agents of Moscow. Who wouldn't be happy to be rid of them?

By contrast, Castro came to power more or less on his own (as did Ho Chi Minh). Yeah, there was some outside help, but it wasn't decisive. The near-universal disgust with and loathing for Bautista was what mattered. Castro's government represents a very real and very strong element in Cuba.

Come to think of it, your analogy tends to disprove your point: people will accept almost anything in preference to being bossed around by monkeys whose first loyalty is to foreign occupiers.

	18-10-2003 15:56									#218
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Well, we shall see. The Iraqi's put up almost no fight at all, did they? They were defending an indigenous regime against an invading world power. Their people and their army were told that America was trying to conquer them for their oil. But they did not fight. They ran.

	18-10-2003 16:12									#219
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They seem to have stopped running.

	18-10-2003 23:50									#220
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quote: Originally posted by uh Clem They seem to have stopped running.

True. But let's make it clear that the people who are fighting are the Baathists, not all, of course, and outsiders who are not Iraqi's. The vast majority of Iraqi's are pleased with the overthrow and look forward to a new, democratic government. We should expect no less from the communists in Cuba. They may fight, but not like the Baathists. The Baathists fight because if they are caught by the people, they may be torn limb from limb. I suspect the communists of Cuba do not rule with the same zeal as did the Baathists and have nothing to fear from surrender.

	19-10-2003 22:28									#221
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quote: Yeah, he only throws them in jail for decades at a time.

Which is obviously much worse than mass-murder.

	19-10-2003 23:06									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Which is obviously much worse than mass-murder.

Ramo, the left would be hypocritical if it did not call for Castro's arrest and trial. He started his rule in Cuba with mass executions without trial. Very similar to Pinochet. Right?

The left is NEVER hypocritical.

	20-10-2003 08:49									#223
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bump - no comment on Castro's mass executions Pinochet-style?

The silence of the left is screaming hypocrisy.

	20-10-2003 09:27									#224
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And, before I forget, John, let me ask whether you would prefer to reduce the budget deficit by raising taxes and killing the business revival thereby lowering tax revenue or by lowering them to spur a business revival to thereby increase tax revenues?

As a liberal who hates conservatives, I know you are anti-business and pro-recession.

	20-10-2003 10:30									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Actually, there is a very good argument for not simply withdrawing from Cuba after "liberation," and that is Peuto Rico. We should give the Cubans the option of becoming Americans with the same status as Peuto Rico, a full fledged State, or completely independent.

1st off, Puerto Rico is a ****-hole. 2nd off, we never gave the Puerto Ricans a real choice. 3rd off, you're showing your true colors, that of the arm-chari imperialist. You don't give a damn about Cubans, you just want to see another star on the flag.

	20-10-2003 10:32									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ned bump - no comment on Castro's mass executions Pinochet-style?

Hmmm, 500 torturers and murderers vs 5,000 political activists? Oh, and, at the time, Castro was not ruling the country. Castro didn't take power for six months after the fall of Batista. The executions happened while Uria was President of Cuba, not Castro. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

	20-10-2003 10:39									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Peuto Rico is one of the best of the Latin America "countries." Cuba is the worst - except for perhaps Haiti.

You crack me up, Ned. Really, you're priceless.

Puerto Rico is a ****-hole. A beautiful ****-hole, but a ****-hole nonetheless. It's only the lack of taxes, the massive infusions of Federal dollars in the form of welfare, and the free ticket to the U.S. (not round trip) that every Puerto Rican can have that keeps the island from being as bad off as Haiti. Cuba is far better off than our colony.

	20-10-2003 11:12									#228
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Che, I will check this out if you think I must, but Castro was behind the executions. This is why the US broke with him after backing him againt Batista. This is the same reason we broke with Pinochet and cut off aid to Chile - human rights abuses.

Castro is responsible. If you continue to deny I, I will find articles and such that prove it.

Anyone from Peuto Rico here to refute the defamation of Che?

	20-10-2003 20:54									#229
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Actually, Ned, AFAIK, we never broke off relations with Chile, though we may have cut them off from military finacial aid.

We didn't start breaking off relations with Cuba until they nationalized some American owned businesses. The problem for the U.S. was that the Cuban government offered the companies twenty-year bonds based on the tax-assessed value of the companies. As the companies, under Batista, had been responsible for telling the government what they were worth, they had been low-balling their actual prices for years. They had been cheating Cuba on taxes for years, but when it bit them in the ass, they wailed to the U.S. government, who promtly slapped sanctions on Cuba. This went back and forth for a couple of years until fnially the U.S. broke off relations and Cuba said, fine, we'll sing a defense treaty with the U.S.S.R.

Really Ned, you need to learn some history.

	20-10-2003 23:10									#230
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I am not going to dispute your view as to why we broke relations with Cuba. But it seems clear that we still want "fair" payment for the US property confiscated, and we want democracy and freedom in Cuba. If the Europeans settled for book value, so should we. If they got more, so should we.

Regardless, the harm the Cubans have suffered from lack of trade with the US has got to be a lot more than the value of the property that was expropriated. The sooner the Cubans do everything in their power to normalize relations with the US, the sooner prosperity will return to Cuba.

It was Castro's move - but he may have missed his opportunity with Bush. I think he, like Saddam, underestimates this president.

	20-10-2003 23:28									#231
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Cuba has undoubtedly suffered from lack of trade. How about this? Suppose your town told you how you must raise your children. If you failed to do it in the way that they dictated, you couldn't participate in any town activities, could purchase things in town, etc. How would you react (assuming you can't move away)? Would you tell them to stuff it and raise your kids how you see fit or would let the town tell you how to live your life? Sometimes you have to stand up to bullies, even if t costs you. That's what Cuba's been doing for 44 years.

	20-10-2003 23:35									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Ned But it seems clear that we still want "fair" payment for the US property confiscated, and we want democracy and freedom in Cuba.

They were offered what they told the government what they were worth. That's fair. AFAIK, the checks are still sitting there, uncashed.

And please stop talking about freedom and democracy in Cuba. The U.S. doesn't give a damn about freedom and democracy in Cuba except as a club which it can to bash over Cuba. If they really cared, they'd stop being hostile to Cuba, and take away Cuba's very valid reason to exist in a seige mentality.

The U.S. hardly blinked when Fukimori made himself dictator in Peru. They welcomed a coup d'etat against the elected president of Venezuela. We're allies of Saudi Arabia and all the other gulf states. We're allies of Pakistan, Egypt, Morocco, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan.