14-10-2003 06:32									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kid, You and many others appear not to have listened to Bush. He said that "Cuba will soon be free." The whole point of this thread is the statement by Bush that he plans to end the Castro dictatorship. The thread degenerated into the typical communism is good/bad thread, depending on your point of view. No one has seriously discussed Bush's message. The question really is this: How will Bush do this? I have been thinking about it for a couple of days now. For a number of reasons, I think the Noriega plan is the only one that will work.

The attack on Panama was not an attack simply directed at Noriega...considering that Panama had under 10,000 men in ars, the US used over 20,000 men in the attack: the took over the entire country (not hard really), not just Panama City, and th estimates of Panamanian civilian deaths vary from a couple of hundread to a couple of thousands, as a poor ghetto next to the mnain headquarters of the Self- defense forces went up in flames (who started it is unknown). The fact ois of course that Cuba is overqhelmingly more heavily armed than Panama was and the US cant count on having most opf the tropp shtye need aready stationed in the country they are about to invade.

Remeber that Panama was the first time Stealth Planes were used, which I can;t figure why cause Panama had 0 air defense or airforce to speak of.

	14-10-2003 06:39									#182
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Becuase the metaphor does not work in this scenerio? After all, why keep the stone small, but work to enlarge the mountain? And other irrelevant metaphors that avoid the valid question?

Seriously, there is a limit to how much can be done by any one entity. We don't criticize people who only give 10% of their income to charity for not giving it all, because we realize that they have needs of their own to take care of. Similarly, trying to change the political landscape of a tiny country 90 miles away seems possible for the U.S., while trying to change a country which is three times our population, has an ancient culture and is thousands of miles away from us physically seems likely to be beyond us.

Nothing wrong with the analogy. We'd like to see a free and democratic China as well, but we can't afford to make that effort. Cuba in contrast costs us very little to influence. It isn't a case of hypocrisy, merely utility.

	14-10-2003 06:44									#183
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because even socialist countries need to trade with one another. Using your criteria, the U.S. economy is a piece of **** because it can't produce everthing it wants/needs and must spend over a hundred billion each year buying from other countries. It's a totaly BS argument.

What you quote isn't an argument, it's a question.

	14-10-2003 06:45									#184
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The embargo on Cuba has failed to bring democracy for 40 years. Usualy people gove up on failed policies, and I can;t think of a more failed one than that..what proof whatsoever does anyone here have that 4 decades of embagoes have moved Cuba on inch closer to democracy?

Why not try something we haven't done? For again, what we have done for 40 years has failed completely.

	14-10-2003 06:46									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander What you quote isn't an argument, it's a question.

It was a question that led to a specius argument on your part.

	14-10-2003 06:51									#186
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It's strange: many of the people who though 12 years of comprehensive international sanctions against Iraq was too much time for too little result and called it a failed policy back 40+ years of uniateral sanctions against Cuba as sensible an correct policy that will bring about change....???

	14-10-2003 22:39									#187
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The embargo on Cuba has failed to bring democracy for 40 years. Usualy people gove up on failed policies, and I can;t think of a more failed one than that..what proof whatsoever does anyone here have that 4 decades of embagoes have moved Cuba on inch closer to democracy? Why not try something we haven't done? For again, what we have done for 40 years has failed completely.

I think this is Bush's point, exactly.

	14-10-2003 22:41									#188
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Che, are you going to go to Cuba to fight for the revolution? If not, I'd say that the Cuba army surrenders/vaporizes in a matter of days following the "arrest" of Castro. No soldier fights for a dictator when he knows that the "conquering army" is there to "liberate" the country from dictatorship.

As to the American people, what it does support, overwhelmingly, is a free and democratic Cuba.

	15-10-2003 06:28									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ned I think this is Bush's point, exactly.

Ned: were you got the notion Bush plans to invade Cuba I can not fathom..really, this is so beyond the pale of what the admin is planning to do (which is just to tighten said embargo) that I must say it vergen on the laughable.

I can say here I bet $1000 that the Bush admin. will NOT invade Cuba during the entirety of its term, even if it wins a new one. Care to take up the bet?

	15-10-2003 17:13									#190
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quote: As to the American people, what it does support, overwhelmingly, is a free and democratic Cuba.

Sure. Who doesn't?

But at what cost? Add in (1) taking casualties and (2) spending lots of money (3) in an occupation lasting years if not decades, that (4) poisons US relationships in Latin-America for years to come, particularly when (5) there are other, vastly more important priorities in the world, and (6) anyway the guy's likely to die sometime within the next 5-10 years.

Now how "overwhelming" would the support be?

Of course, balancing this is (1) Bush's desperate need for a foreign policy success, or at least something that isn't an utter fiasco, before November 2004. So one never knows. An administration that actually solicits advice from a crackpot like Richard Perle is capable of anything.

But the odds are still strongly against it.

	15-10-2003 17:25									#191
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i don't see how the bush administration would think invading cuba would be a good move. if it ends up like bay of pigs, it's hella bad for them. if they succeed, they end up having to build another nation on top of two other countries--and space in the budget for that doesn't seem too likely.
besides, we're still fighting a war on terror; with no links between cuba and any islamist terror group, he wouldn't be able to say that it helps our fight against terrorism any.

	15-10-2003 22:14									#192
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ned: were you got the notion Bush plans to invade Cuba I can not fathom..really, this is so beyond the pale of what the admin is planning to do (which is just to tighten said embargo) that I must say it vergen on the laughable. I can say here I bet $1000 that the Bush admin. will NOT invade Cuba during the entirety of its term, even if it wins a new one. Care to take up the bet?

Bush said, in Spanish, "Cuba shall soon be free." I simply asked how he would do that? Tightening the embargo will not work, just as you pointed out. I think another Bay of Pigs is a non starter. This left the Noriega option.

I will collect your $1,000 in Havana while we both enjoy a few rounds at the newly re-opened casinos.

	15-10-2003 22:32									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed i don't see how the bush administration would think invading cuba would be a good move. if it ends up like bay of pigs, it's hella bad for them. if they succeed, they end up having to build another nation on top of two other countries--and space in the budget for that doesn't seem too likely. besides, we're still fighting a war on terror; with no links between cuba and any islamist terror group, he wouldn't be able to say that it helps our fight against terrorism any.

Now, why in the world would we have to "rebuild" Cuba. I thought it was a socialist paradise. You are not implying, are you, that there has been no investment in infrastructure since the glorious dictator took power?

	15-10-2003 23:23									#194
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you do realize, ned, that i've never been a communist, nor someone who appreciates it, particularly because my relatives happen to live under one of its incarnations and that my brothers' godparents fled the cuban incarnation itself, and that your condescending remarks there are quite insulting.

	15-10-2003 23:40									#195
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quote: I will collect your $1,000 in Havana while we both enjoy a few rounds at the newly re-opened casinos.

Does that mean you accept the bet?!

This is going to be the first one on Apolyton!

	16-10-2003 01:24									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No soldier fights for a dictator when he knows that the "conquering army" is there to "liberate" the country from dictatorship.

Hmmm, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Panama, even tiny Grenada, all fought the U.S. despite "the 'conquering army' [being] there to 'liberate' the country from dictatorship." Cuba does not want to be an American colony. That's why they made the revolution. Castro wasn't forced upon them, he overthrew Batista, and then the people marched, a half million in the streets demanding Castro take the Presidency. Uria resigned, and Castro became leader of Cuba.

quote: As to the American people, what it does support, overwhelmingly, is a free and democratic Cuba.

Perhaps so, but they are also overwhelmingly opposed to the embargo, which means that support for an invasion only exists in a narrow spectrum of ultra-rightists like yourself.

	16-10-2003 04:56									#197
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soldiers fight for a dictator when they are brainwashed enough.

kim jong il has quite an army, and his people have been indoctrinated against america for fifty years. you think they're just going to roll over when bush comes a-knockin'?

cuba underwent a revolution because the overwhelming majority of people there, at the time, didn't like the rich who were getting richer off american products while they themselves were getting poorer. also helps that at the time, the pro-american leader was also a dictator.

	17-10-2003 01:14									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed you do realize, ned, that i've never been a communist, nor someone who appreciates it, particularly because my relatives happen to live under one of its incarnations and that my brothers' godparents fled the cuban incarnation itself, and that your condescending remarks there are quite insulting.

Q Cubed, I meant no disrepect to you. But much of this thread was devoted to praising the glories of the Castro regime and how much he has brought the people of Cuba. My sarcasm on "reconstruction" was directed to them, not to you.

That said, I know Castro has degraded that country to its point of collapse. We almost owe a duty to the people of Cuba to come to their rescue. I would support not only liberation but reconstruction.

	17-10-2003 04:19									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Ned That said, I know Castro has degraded that country to its point of collapse. We almost owe a duty to the people of Cuba to come to their rescue.

Oh, do you? When was the last time you were in Cuba?

	17-10-2003 04:24									#200
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Oh, do you? When was the last time you were in Cuba?

When were you there?

	17-10-2003 04:35									#201
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc When were you there?

Can't tell you.

	17-10-2003 04:36									#202
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Damn! I thought I had you for a minute.

	17-10-2003 06:47									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Bush said, in Spanish, "Cuba shall soon be free." I simply asked how he would do that? Tightening the embargo will not work, just as you pointed out. I think another Bay of Pigs is a non starter. This left the Noriega option. I will collect your $1,000 in Havana while we both enjoy a few rounds at the newly re-opened casinos.

BUsh also said we would soon have Osama bin Laden more than a year ago..lyet he hasn;t mentioned that name in months.

So before you ask youeself: how will he do it? Ask yourself: is this anything more than vote-pandering speechmaking?

The answer is: NO.

	17-10-2003 11:18									#204
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The point on Osama bin Laden also helps prove my point. Bush does not idly say that he has decided that a regime has got to do something or else. He gave the Taliban a final warning. Ditto Saddam. He gave Castro a chance. Castro thumbed his nose at Bush. Bush has now decided to remove Castro.

He will.

	17-10-2003 11:22									#205
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Che, if I ever see you in Cuba, I will probably be visiting you in jail there after you have been captured defending one of the last bastions of communism in the world. I hardly think that you would join me for a few beers celebrating the liberation of the Cuban people by George Bush.

	17-10-2003 11:55									#206
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Oh yeah....the Cubans WOULD fight a US Invasion, certainly...even if the US could basically bomb and/or occupy every single mile in the island, lots will resist and it won't be a very nice sight...Castro may be far from the "best" possible leader/regime for the Cubans, but certainly (at least somewhat rightly) they think he's better than whatever Bush tries to force on them by military pressure this late in the game...

	17-10-2003 16:38									#207
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However thrilled the Cubans will be at the first sight of their Liberators pales when compared to how they'll be feeling when it sinks in that they'll be expected to reimburse their benefactors.

But then, going about the world doing good doesn't come cheap. Dropping that annoying free health care, among other things, will help the Cubans get their priorities in better order.

	17-10-2003 17:48									#208
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quote: That said, I know Castro has degraded that country to its point of collapse. We almost owe a duty to the people of Cuba to come to their rescue.

Yeah, back in the good old Bautista days the people knew their places as *****es to American businesses/mobsters. He doesn't even have the common decency to kill everyone who disagrees with him. The bastard!

	17-10-2003 19:26									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo He doesn't even have the common decency to kill everyone who disagrees with him. The bastard!

Yeah, he only throws them in jail for decades at a time.

	17-10-2003 19:50									#210
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, if I ever see you in Cuba, I will probably be visiting you in jail there after you have been captured defending one of the last bastions of communism in the world. I hardly think that you would join me for a few beers celebrating the liberation of the Cuban people by George Bush.

I will.