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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
At this juncture I would have to disagree insofarasmuch Nazi Germany's only use for jews was foder where as we used slaves for more than just target practice. |
While I would agree with your disagreement that the enslavement of Africans were not similar, I dsagree with your reasoning.
Specifically: Jews and others were used as slave labor to increase the profits of capitalist firms (no labor costs means lots of profit). Their property was used to reward loyal Nazis as well as the Jews' neighbors in conquered countries.
Two: the man credited with inventing the field of gynecology experiemented on his slaves, without using anesthetics, even though they were available in a primative form at the time. He was a forerunner to the experiements of Mengele, only differentiated by the fact that Mengele's experiements were pointless as far as increasing human knowledge was concerned.
After the end of slavery, the murder of Blacks was barely considered a crime in the U.S. for almost 100 years. Perhaps more than ten thousand Black people were murdered for whites entertainment.
The Tuskeegee Experiement. 'Nuff said.
What makes the Holocaust unique is the scale, the speed, and the efficiency of the murder; the fact that it was organized; the fact that a significant portion of the states resources were directed towards genocide; and that its goals were the complete eradication of certain speficic types of indivudals, whereever they could be found, included: Jews, Roma, homosexuals, and the handicapped (both physically and mentally).
While slavery ultimate killed more Africans (at least a third of all Africans died in the Middle Passage) and far more died here in the Americas (with the exception of the U.S., which prefered to create a "breeding stock" rather than just work their slaves to death and buy new ones), and many tens of millions of slaves were imported to the New World. However, it took place over the course of four centuries.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:31
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Interesting thoughts . . .
As Chegitz briefly pointed out the period of the 'nadir of race relations' in United States, which is generally the years 1880s through 1930s, 6,000 to 10,000 blacks were lynched over a period of 50 - 60 years.
In some ways, there are interesting parallels of racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and other forms of systematized extreme hatred that became prevalent in all parts of the world in the early 20th century.
The lynching era of the United States, however, was not on any systematic scale approaching that of genocide in other parts of the world.
And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?
Homosexuals were seen as unfit to live in human society under Nazi rule. That they were inhumanly immoral.
I shudder whenever I see condemnations of homosexuals today, that sound like echoes from era of Nazi Germany.
And the Gypsies -- although they were a smaller group of people than the Jews, didn't they suffer proportionately more than the Jews from the Holocaust?
But again, to what point does it make any sense to make these comparisions -- they were all humans, and they were all killed injusticely, no matter what group they belonged to.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Cambodia:
1. Complete eradication of certain individuals. (by education) |
You aren't educated by birth. It's something you chose to have. You don't (often) choose to be a Jew or a Roma. Furthermore, they did not try and kill off intellectuals in other countries.
quote:
2. Organised by the state, eg systematic. |
The widely believed two million deaths mark was a flip comment made by a French journalist in the 1970s, who was in no position to know. It has since come to be accepted as gospel. AFAIK, the only attempt to try and find out how many people died under KR rule was by the CIA, who estimated that about 40,000 were died in the killing fields. The organized killing was actually very small.
Assuming the CIA was wrong, most of the deaths came from starvation. The starvation was caused by people by lowered productivity, which occured when the US bombed the bejeezuz out of Cambodia in the early 1970s and Cambodea went from an grain exporting country to a grain importing one. This led to the instability which enabled the KR to topple Lon Nol (Sihanok having been overthrown by LN). Factor in the complete stupidity of cutting yourself off from the outside world and you have a great recipe for famine.
quote:
3. Efficient, you still cannot find doctors today of a certain age. |
Not efficient. They determined who was or was not an intellectual by looking at their hands or if they had eye glasses.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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Re: educated cambodians, Roma, German gays
1. As Guevera said, education is not something youre born with. While it certainly isnt a choice ONCE the genocide starts, its not quite the same thing.
2. Gays -well, we may be learning now that it IS something youre born with, nobody thought so in the 1930's.
And were any non-German gays murdered? Polish gays? Italian gays? Hungarians? see below re roma
3. the extermination of the Roma by the Nazis comes as close to the extermination of the Jews as any event in history, and I admit to feeling uncomfortable making a distinction. If you say that it is equivalent to the Jewish holocaust I wont make a fuss. But I will point out that the argument HAS been made that it is still different in this respect - the Nazis killed the Roma they knew about in the places they ruled. They want beyond this for the Jews. For example they famously pressured the fascist regimes in Italy and Hungary to turn over their Jews to the Germans, against the will of those two governments. To my knowledge they did not do the same with respect to Italian or Hungarian Roma. They searched for hidden Jews, attempting to pass as gentiles. I am not aware of similar efforts wrt Roma. And they made the persecution of Jews central to their regime and its ideology, in a way they did not do wrt Roma.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:31
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MrFun, you mainly just stated some nice facts that show that while US genocide occured over a longer period of time that it was the speed at which the Nazi regime did what they did and also how a hatred for one "race" was spread to all corners of the world.
quote:
And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?
Homosexuals were seen as unfit to live in human society under Nazi rule. That they were inhumanly immoral.
I shudder whenever I see condemnations of homosexuals today, that sound like echoes from era of Nazi Germany. |
You are such an attention whore aren't you?
quote:
And the Gypsies -- although they were a smaller group of people than the Jews, didn't they suffer proportionately more than the Jews from the Holocaust? |
Aren't the gypsies Russian Jews, or am I thinking of some other class?
quote:
But again, to what point does it make any sense to make these comparisions -- they were all humans, and they were all killed injusticely, no matter what group they belonged to. |
If one wants to address genocide then this is the approach you take. If one wants to address the Holocost that occured in Nazi era Germany one should not do so by comparing it to other acts of extreme prejudice either to make it bigger than life or less important. Doing so would seemingly either increase or decrease the value of jewish lives when compared to the lives of africans, russians, serbs, or what-have-you... Next time your teacher starts debasing or demphisizing the holocost on the grand scheme of genocide you tell him that.
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:31
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Ok -- thanks for your thoughts.
But I also thought about something else . . . .
To what extent did a number of Jews felt that they could only survive by helping administer the ghettos and concentration camps of Nazi Germany? Such as the kapos, for instance.
They were only deluding themselves by thinking they were indispenable in the eyes of the SS and other staff.
Also, nye brought up the basic perspective of Asians in regards to the Holocaust, which seems to make sense. An event always seems more important to the people involved, than those from the outside -- generally, speaking, I guess.
But what is also interesting is that Japan wants the world to focus on her World War II involvement as being victims of a nuclear holocaust, rather than remembering the crimes that Japan committed against the Chinese civilian population, as well as POWS of China, Great Britain, India, United States, and Australia.
I guess this brings up the question as to how does the process of identification based on victims and perpetrators affect human history?
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:31
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quote:
You aren't educated by birth. It's something you chose to have. You don't (often) choose to be a Jew or a Roma. Furthermore, they did not try and kill off intellectuals in other countries.
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Che:
So genocide is okay, if you restrict yourself to the confines of your own country?
Secondly, the Germans controlled Poland, so technically it could be considered part of Nazi Germany.
Third, we come back to the definition of a group. I chose to be a Christian, if people were to kill Christians, would this not be considered genocide?
2. Organised by the state, eg systematic.
http://www.yale.edu/cgp/report94-97_v3.html
They estimate 1.7 million. Seems rather credible.
http://www.bigpond.com.kh/users/dcc...ocide/qcahc.htm
Seems like a pretty good essay.
quote:
Although this work is not yet complete, the results to date are quite startling. So far, 20,492 mass graves dating from the Khmer Rouge regime, spread all across Cambodia, have been precisely surveyed. According to the data, these mass graves contain the remains of 1,112,829 victims of execution. (See Table 1, next page, for provincial breakdown.)
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As for efficiency, they killed the educated people as well as others. So did the Nazis, they killed other people in addition to the Jews, the handicapped, political criminals, etc.
I'm curious as to people's limits, how many people do you have to kill to have it count? 1 million, 2 million? I think a much better argument is to look at the features in common, how people get stripped of their humanity, the Nazis did so with the Jews, so did the Khmer Rouge do to the Cambodians. We see the same inside the US with both the blacks and Native Americans.
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notyoueither
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of naught
Aug 2001
time: 22:31
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
One of the things you need to consider is that one of the reasons why we think the Holocaust was so bad was that it was done to white people. nye says that because its "us" who did it, it's more in our minds. I disagree, as "we" have done a lot more than just the Holocaust, but the only one that really seems to bother us is the Holocaust. |
It's not the only one that bothers us though. Granted, I missed saying it was done by 'us' to 'us', I realised that shortly after posting. However, it is a relatively recent example of how badly our modern states can go haywire and how badly haywire they can go.
As for being the 'only' one to bother us, that is not true at all. Where I am from there is widely shared regret about how Amerindians were treated. Even though we did not send the cavalry, the effects of our contact with them had catastrophic consequences, often despite good intentions. There are many other examples of historical trends or events that bother 'us', some of them widely shared and some of them localised. The Holocaust is not the only one.
However, as LotM has pointed out, the Holocaust is distinctive for the intent, the methods, and the extent it was pursued. I have pointed out that who did it, and you have brought up who it happened to as important also. It's a whole package. You can't say that one or the other element is the sole explanation for why it is regarded as important, or who will regard it as being so; although, the who's are most often the most important element in what is regarded as noteworthy.
btw, it would not be that they were white that makes it important to 'us'. It is that it was 'us' who did it to 'ourselves' AND what was done as well as the way it was done. It is 'our' history on both ends and up the middle, and that is why it would be more important to 'us'.
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Che:
So genocide is okay, if you restrict yourself to the confines of your own country?
Secondly, the Germans controlled Poland, so technically it could be considered part of Nazi Germany.
Third, we come back to the definition of a group. I chose to be a Christian, if people were to kill Christians, would this not be considered genocide?
2. Organised by the state, eg systematic.
http://www.yale.edu/cgp/report94-97_v3.html
They estimate 1.7 million. Seems rather credible.
http://www.bigpond.com.kh/users/dcc...ocide/qcahc.htm
Seems like a pretty good essay.
As for efficiency, they killed the educated people as well as others. So did the Nazis, they killed other people in addition to the Jews, the handicapped, political criminals, etc.
I'm curious as to people's limits, how many people do you have to kill to have it count? 1 million, 2 million? I think a much better argument is to look at the features in common, how people get stripped of their humanity, the Nazis did so with the Jews, so did the Khmer Rouge do to the Cambodians. We see the same inside the US with both the blacks and Native Americans. |
we seem to be talking past each other. I thought the original question was "was the nazi destruction of the Jews a unique genocide" NOT "was the destruction of the Jews uniquely genocide"
To the latter the answer is unequivaically NO. You can commit genocide against any large group, not just one defined by birth. You can commit genocide within one country's borders. You dont have to be efficient, or modern, or civilized to commit genocide. In none of these cases is genocide "OK". However some genocides are more noteworthy to historians than others - and raise issues that others do not. Is that case with regard to the extermination of European Jewry - was it truely unique, or are we misled because of our western perspective. No one is arguing that the other instances are not genocides (well I won't speak for Guevera re:Cambodia)
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Interesting thoughts . . .
As Chegitz briefly pointed out the period of the 'nadir of race relations' in United States, which is generally the years 1880s through 1930s, 6,000 to 10,000 blacks were lynched over a period of 50 - 60 years.
In some ways, there are interesting parallels of racism, xenophobia, anti-Semitism, and other forms of systematized extreme hatred that became prevalent in all parts of the world in the early 20th century.
The lynching era of the United States, however, was not on any systematic scale approaching that of genocide in other parts of the world.
And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?
Homosexuals were seen as unfit to live in human society under Nazi rule. That they were inhumanly immoral.
I shudder whenever I see condemnations of homosexuals today, that sound like echoes from era of Nazi Germany.
And the Gypsies -- although they were a smaller group of people than the Jews, didn't they suffer proportionately more than the Jews from the Holocaust?
But again, to what point does it make any sense to make these comparisions -- they were all humans, and they were all killed injusticely, no matter what group they belonged to. |
Because there are many people who are tired of hearing about the holocaust - their goal is NOT to raise awareness of other genocides (which I would applaud) but to minimize the seriousness of the holocaust - whats the big friggin deal, this happened all the time to everyone, lets go back to talking about something else - lets stop hearing about these friggin Joos. Lets stop thinking that the physical safety of the Jews is a particular concern for the West. Lets stop thinking that the US should get credit for opposing the Nazis - lets talk about colonialism instead. Lets make antisemitism respectable again, like it was in the good old days.
(needless to say not all of the above arguments are held by the same people)
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16-10-2003 01:38
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