15-10-2003 22:54									#1
	Holocaust and Historiographical Issues Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Last night in my Historiography course, we had interesting discussion on the various scholarly issues in regards to studying the Holocaust of Nazi Germany.

Some questions that I think are interesting:

Is there a risk in overemphasizing the Holocaust to the extent that our view of that time period is distorted?

How can we avoid quantifying human tragedies such as genocide, massacre, and so forth? For instance, just because there are genocides before and after the Holocaust that are on a much smaller scale, does not mean that they are less horrendous or tragic.
Isn't it unfair to use the Holocaust as some kind of benchmark when comparing seemingly lesser genocides -- after all, they ALL involve the loss of many, many innocent human lives.

Has the Holocaust always received much more memorializing and scholarly studies because this was a genocide that happened within Europe instead of Africa, Asia, Latin America, or other parts of the world? Who has good memory of the horrendous genocides committed in the name of colonialism up to mid-twentieth century??

While understanding that the Jews lost 6 million of their kind in the Holocaust and the other 6 million consisted of all the other various victimized groups, aren't we still neglecting to consider the other victimized groups of the Holocaust that included homosexuals, Gypsies, mentally/physically disabled, political dissents, and so forth?

Have too many people involved in the Nazi regime been given too light of punishment? Have too many even been let go, without any punishment? Where is the justice that these perpetrators escape justice, while Holocaust survivors have to suffer their own personal memories for the rest of their lives?


I'm sure there are other interesting questions that deserve to be asked, that I cannot think of at the moment. But what are other people's thoughts on these issues/questions and do you have any questions/issues that you might have thought of?

	15-10-2003 23:10									#2
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The holocaust was so "industrial" and well organised. And performed by a supposedly civilised nation. I think that's what's so scary about it. It wasn't just random raping and pillaging.

	15-10-2003 23:13									#3
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The holocaust is probably over-hyped in America because some of the powerful media outlets here are controlled by jews.

	15-10-2003 23:20									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The holocaust is probably over-hyped in America because some of the powerful media outlets here are controlled by jews.

Everyone make sure you put on your flame-retardant suits, because it's going to get awful hot in here...

	15-10-2003 23:25									#5
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quote: How can we avoid quantifying human tragedies such as genocide, massacre, and so forth? For instance, just because there are genocides before and after the Holocaust that are on a much smaller scale, does not mean that they are less horrendous or tragic. Isn't it unfair to use the Holocaust as some kind of benchmark when comparing seemingly lesser genocides -- after all, they ALL involve the loss of many, many innocent human lives.

Dr. King compared the situation in the US for American Blacks to the Holocaust, so what do you think about his comparison?

What about comparisons with much greater losses of lives than the Holocaust, is it still a fair comparison?

I don't think the numbers matter so much as the reason. All forms of genocide ought to be condemned, as they are a fundamental rejection of human worth and dignity.

	15-10-2003 23:29									#6
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1. other genocides are important and should be studied and commemorated.

2. Victims of the Nazis other than Jews should be studied and commemorated.

I note that the US holocaust museum in DC covers all victims of the Nazi holocaust, not just Jews. It also had programs that look at other genocides.

That said i would add the following points.

1. The Nazi holocaust is unique, because it was out of historical charecter. It was commited by one of the most advanced, civilized peoples on the planet - and against a minority that was largely accepted prior to the 1930's. It is therefore that much more shocking, and raises different issues about human nature and history than other genocides.

2. The Nazi extermination of the Jews was different both from other genocides, and from other Nazi mass murders. In two ways - the Nazis apparently intended to murder ALL Jews they could get their hands on, from anyplace. And they placed the the murder of the Jews above the survival of their own regime or their country's victory in war, to the point where they used valuable rail transport to move jews to murder camps when such transport was needed to support the military. The Turks for example, apparently saw murder of the Armenians as fulfilling strategic goals - its hard to imagine the Turks perpertating it to the point that it would have endangered their state. Ditto for Tutsis in Rwanda, Kurds in Iraq, etc.

The Jews are unique among victims. Many Nazi victims were murdered for actions or beliefs - dissident, communists, etc rather than the fact of their existence. Slavs were murdered for the fact of their existence, but it seems the Nazi goal was to reduce their numbers, and enslave the rest, not to eliminate them from the globe. The gypsies apparently were all marked for death - but for the most part the Nazis only exterminated Gypsies in areas of direct German rule. WRT Jews, they pressured their satellites and allies to turn over Jews, so that no area they could reach was safe for Jews. They combed Europe for any surviving Jew with an obsessive quality.

The turks murdered Armenians in armenia, but not ones under turkish rule in other parts of the Ottoman empire. Similarly the genocidaires in Rwanda seemed to have been unconcerned about the survival of Tutsis in Congo, etc.

For a fuller discussion of these issues, I suggest "To mend the world" by the recently deceased Emil Fakenheim.

	15-10-2003 23:31									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Dr. King compared the situation in the US for American Blacks to the Holocaust, so what do you think about his comparison? .

citation please. Much depends on context and exactly what he said.

	15-10-2003 23:32									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Everyone make sure you put on your flame-retardant suits, because it's going to get awful hot in here...

Why? It's an undeniable fact that some powerful media outlets in America are in the hands of jewish people. That they feel strongly about the holocaust is understandable.

	15-10-2003 23:33									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Dr. King compared the situation in the US for American Blacks to the Holocaust, so what do you think about his comparison? What about comparisons with much greater losses of lives than the Holocaust, is it still a fair comparison? I don't think the numbers matter so much as the reason. All forms of genocide ought to be condemned, as they are a fundamental rejection of human worth and dignity.

by the wayben, you might find fackenheim interesting for a number of things he says about theology, the nature of faith after the holocaust, and what the holocaust means for beleiving christians. I cant recommend "to mend the world" too highly.

	15-10-2003 23:34									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Why? It's an undeniable fact that some powerful media outlets in America are in the hands of jewish people. That they feel strongly about the holocaust is understandable.

It was probably even more true in the 1950's, when said outlets tended to ignore the holocaust.

	15-10-2003 23:37									#11
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It was probably even more true in the 1950's, when said outlets tended to ignore the holocaust.

Really? I wonder why that was? Perhaps victim status wasn't as desirable back then as it is now.

	15-10-2003 23:39									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Who has good memory of the horrendous genocides committed in the name of colonialism up to mid-twentieth century??

Probably the largest and most dramatic one was that commited in the Congo Free State toward the end of the 19th century. Far too little studied or memorialized if you ask me.

But again - thats the ending of an old story of European colonialism and white racism, which in turn fit into older stories of murder, enslavement and pillage throughout history - while beyond the pale of its time, it was still "in character" to some degree. Not as much of a bolt from the blue as the Nazi holocaust.

	15-10-2003 23:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Really? I wonder why that was? Perhaps victim status wasn't as desirable back then as it is now.

Victim status isnt desirable. I can assure you all the holocaust survivors i know would rather not have been victims.


In the 1960's comparisons to the holocaust became common in the context of discussions of nuclear war, civil rights, etc. This tended to thrust the Nazi holocaust back onto the scene. Basically the media followed, they didnt lead.

	15-10-2003 23:46									#14
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Victim status isnt desirable. I can assure you all the holocaust survivors i know would rather not have been victims.

I mean a perceived victim status, not an actual one. A perceived victim status of a group.

quote: In the 1960's comparisons to the holocaust became common in the context of discussions of nuclear war, civil rights, etc. This tended to thrust the Nazi holocaust back onto the scene. Basically the media followed, they didnt lead.

Interesting. I suppose it's just become a symbol of suffering due to common usage.

	15-10-2003 23:49									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia I mean a perceived victim status, not an actual one. A perceived victim status of a group. Interesting. I suppose it's just become a symbol of suffering due to common usage.

Id rather not discuss this line of thought further. I would also recommend Fackenheim's "To mend the world" to you.

	15-10-2003 23:51									#16
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LoTM:

From Dr. King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail

We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. Even so, I am sure that, had I lived in Germany at the time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers. If today I lived in a Communist country where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I would openly advocate disobeying that country's antireligious laws.

http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html

quote: 1. The Nazi holocaust is unique, because it was out of historical charecter. It was commited by one of the most advanced, civilized peoples on the planet - and against a minority that was largely accepted prior to the 1930's. It is therefore that much more shocking, and raises different issues about human nature and history than other genocides.

Unique? Well, then I have an argument and a comparison. What about the Soviet Union in the 20th Century under Stalin? Was this not a civilised country of advanced peoples?

Secondly, why should it matter if the nation is civilised or not? Should we not equally condemn genocide if performed in Cambodia or Rwanda?

quote: The Turks for example, apparently saw murder of the Armenians as fulfilling strategic goals - its hard to imagine the Turks perpertating it to the point that it would have endangered their state. Ditto for Tutsis in Rwanda, Kurds in Iraq, etc.

So the Turks were justified in killing the Armenians for 'strategic reasons'?

That's pretty feeble. I'm sure the Nazis saw the Jews as threatening the 'strategic interests' of the state.

	16-10-2003 00:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi LoTM: From Dr. King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail We should never forget that everything Adolf Hitler did in Germany was "legal" and everything the Hungarian freedom fighters did in Hungary was "illegal." It was "illegal" to aid and comfort a Jew in Hitler's Germany. Even so, I am sure that, had I lived in Germany at the time, I would have aided and comforted my Jewish brothers. If today I lived in a Communist country where certain principles dear to the Christian faith are suppressed, I would openly advocate disobeying that country's antireligious laws. http://almaz.com/nobel/peace/MLK-jail.html

What MLK said is quite correct, In the context of justifying civil disobedience of the law, he noted that the Nazi holocaust was "legal". This does not imply that it was the same as the civil rights situation in other respects, and Im quite sure Dr. King did not mean to imply that it was.

quote: Unique? Well, then I have an argument and a comparison. What about the Soviet Union in the 20th Century under Stalin? Was this not a civilised country of advanced peoples?

A difficult case. Id make 2 points. 1. No russia was not quite as advanced as Germany. It had been an authoritarian state with limited human rights and widespread persecution of minorities (especially Jews) upto 1914. Germany, OTOH, was nation of laws and essentially equal treatment for citizens pre-1914. In addition to being the scientific and cultural leader of europe in a way that Russia was not. The case of Germany thus threatens notions of progress, of the beneficial effects of culture, etc in ways that Russia does not. 2. For all the horrors of stalinism, there is no case I know of where he attempted to exterminate a group defined by birth to the last individidual the way the Nazis did. This is not to say Stalin was "less bad" then Hitler - just that the Nazi genocide was a unique kind of genocide.

quote: Secondly, why should it matter if the nation is civilised or not? Should we not equally condemn genocide if performed in Cambodia or Rwanda?

Of course we should. The question is not who we should condemn - the question is how to address the historical, philisophical and yes theological questions raised by genocide. At one time there was an attempt at theodicy based on notions of historical progress - Yeah, bad stuff happens, but humans are moving to higher levels of civilation, and this is part of God's providence. The Nazi holocaust thus presented problems for both certain religious viewpoints,and certain secular viewpoints, that other genocides dont raise. To put it more simply - i can look at Rwanda and say "well its just those backward people - people like ME would never do such a thing" (not that would be a nice reaction, but its concievable) Its much harder to look at the Nazi holocaust that way.

quote: So the Turks were justified in killing the Armenians for 'strategic reasons'? That's pretty feeble. I'm sure the Nazis saw the Jews as threatening the 'strategic interests' of the state.

Of course the genocide against the Armenians was not justified. Im only stating that the Nazi holocaust reached a different level of horror, and not just because of numbers. (for a discussion of the holocaust and Nazi strategic interests I would again suggest "To mend the world" -sorry if this is sounding repetive, but Fackenheim really does address head on most of the points raised in this thread)

	16-10-2003 00:09									#18
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@Cali... unfortunately there is a lot to what you say that is correct.

I think the thing with the holocost in Germany was that Hitler used the hatred for the jews as leverage not only to take over the country, but half a continent as well. Also, most of the civilian germans claim to have had no idea that it was going on (yeah right)...

Compared to other genocidal acts I don't think it weighs any heavier, and that despite the hype of it by Jews in the media or with deep pockets from which to build monuments and movies too, is more tragic in the sense that it was used as a successful vehicle to power in recent times... effecting more lives than just those of the persecuted and the persecuters.

Just the idea that one can govern power through hate, and transplant that hate into those who follow to such a state that they can take over a whole continent! Then, in the wake of that powers destruction to still have groups that idolize such power and perpetuate the hate in such numbers...

The Holocost, IMO, is not only about the needless murders of countless inocents but also about an end to the innocence of democracy and western "civilization" as we once knew it.

	16-10-2003 00:36									#19
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It seems to me that the teacher is trying to de-emphasize the Holocost. Why?

	16-10-2003 00:46									#20
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Question, is a non Israeli Jew safe in an Arab country? If not, are not the Arabs as quilty as the Nazi's of race hatred?

	16-10-2003 00:50									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Question, is a non Israeli Jew safe in an Arab country? If not, are not the Arabs as quilty as the Nazi's of race hatred?

Safe is relative. A non-Israeli jew wont be subject to state implemented murder in any arab country i can think of. Even in Saudi he'll be shown the door, not murdered. Ergo, the answer to your question is no.

	16-10-2003 00:50									#22
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Also, I agree that the enslavement and discrimination against blacks in this country was very much like the Holocost.

	16-10-2003 00:54									#23
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In Sweden a new anti-genocide agency has recently been founded, with a task to educate and inform. Now the left-wing party has protested because the agency is also talking about Stalin's victims. Nuts, heh?

	16-10-2003 00:55									#24
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quote: Also, I agree that the enslavement and discrimination against blacks in this country was very much like the Holocost.

Now that's something to think about. At this juncture I would have to disagree insofarasmuch Nazi Germany's only use for jews was foder where as we used slaves for more than just target practice.

	16-10-2003 01:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. The Nazi holocaust is unique, because it was out of historical charecter. It was commited by one of the most advanced, civilized peoples on the planet - and against a minority that was largely accepted prior to the 1930's. It is therefore that much more shocking, and raises different issues about human nature and history than other genocides.

AFAIK Jews were not widely accepted pre-1930. Anti semetism has been widespread for many centuries, at least. Shylock in the merchant of venice was an example of how people at the time felt Jews were selfish and greedy.

~1907 the zionist congress was formed to find an area for the jewish state as widespread persecution. Jews were considered second rate citizens in most countries.

	16-10-2003 01:19									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Snotty AFAIK Jews were not widely accepted pre-1930. Anti semetism has been widespread for many centuries, at least. Shylock in the merchant of venice was an example of how people at the time felt Jews were selfish and greedy. ~1907 the zionist congress was formed to find an area for the jewish state as widespread persecution. Jews were considered second rate citizens in most countries.

Jews in Germany had full legal rights, the same as all other citizens. Now Germany (like other western countries) wasnt open to unlimited numbers of Jews from Russia, and so a state was called for as a haven. But it was not expected at the time that German Jews would need such a haven themselves.

	16-10-2003 01:19									#27
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the same people that think that black people are inferior are also the ones to claim that the holocaust is "overhyped by jews in the media".

Coinsidence?

I don't think so.

	16-10-2003 01:31									#28
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LoTM I must have misunderstood your comment above, and your bolt from the blue one. You seemed to imply that it was a suprise the jews were targeted. I find it no more suprising than targeting the other disliked minoritys.

	16-10-2003 01:32									#29
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Actually, I'm on the jew's side in most things - like Israel v Pals for example.

	16-10-2003 01:35									#30
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LoTM:

quote: To put it more simply - i can look at Rwanda and say "well its just those backward people - people like ME would never do such a thing" (not that would be a nice reaction, but its concievable) Its much harder to look at the Nazi holocaust that way.

I think you need to read more of Joseph Conrad if you think you can make such blithe distinctions between 'civilised' nations and uncivilised ones.

"And this also," said Marlow suddenly, "has been one of
the dark places of the earth."

Heart of Darkness

quote: but humans are moving to higher levels of civilisation, and this is part of God's providence.

How then do you interpret the Tower of Babel? Progress is not intrisically good in itself. In fact, I doubt that through our own means we can improve people at all.

quote: 2. For all the horrors of stalinism, there is no case I know of where he attempted to exterminate a group defined by birth to the last individidual the way the Nazis did.

Define 'Group' and we can proceed.