16-10-2003 23:03									#91
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I repeat: "OK I'm exaggerating here but I think there's some truth to it." Maybe I should have said "Israel supporters" instead of "Israel".

I didn't mean to say that the Israeli government has used or uses this kind of rhetoric. What I'm saying is that some of Israel's supporters have hinted towards the holocaust to gain sympathy.

As for Begin, even though he never openly used the holocaust to justify violence etc, by bringing up the subject in his speaches planted the thought in the world opinion if you know what I mean.

	16-10-2003 23:16									#92
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what you seem to be saying is that more attention was given to the holocaust in academia, US media, etc after 1967 (vs the 1950s') in order to justify Israeli actions against the Pals.

I think that assertion is both false and despicable.

	17-10-2003 00:01									#93
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The holocaust is a golden pathos argument and I don't think it's so shocking to think that pro-Israel lobbyists/PR people/media etc have been thinking the same. Hell, they would be stupid if they didn't.

Last edited by Gangerolf on 17-10-2003 at 00:08

	17-10-2003 00:04									#94
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Well, I think its fair to say that some individuals and organizations have used the holocaust in that way from time to time. On the other hand, to take a different point than cali, the holocaust is a big deal in Sweden. This is a country with a very small jewish minority (something like 10,000 iirc) and with a different (on average) perspective on the situation in Israel/Palestine than the US has.

	17-10-2003 01:03									#95
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The thing about the Holocaust that is unique is that it was a genocide based on pure racism. The more we fought World War II, the more we began to realize that the war against Nazi Germany was not just a war against fascism, but a war against racism. That war transformed America, and probably other countries in the world as well, from being a nation where racism was a given to a nation where racism was considered evil. Where before the war, blacks were considered subhuman by many if not most Americans and were therefore acceptable targets of discrimination, after the war a great many Americans began to battle racism here in United States. Our reaction to Holocaust led to an end of discrimination in the Armed Forces. That led to Brown v. Board of Education and to the end of "separate but equal." It also led to civil rights legislation in United States and to affirmative action which have substantially eradicated racism here. The Holocaust was central to changing America's and hopefully the world's thinking on racial issues.

This is why I believe that there is a link between the Holocaust and the treatment of blacks in America. Both were based on racism and both were evil.

	17-10-2003 01:07									#96
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Racism in the armed forces? My ass! It's a well known scientific fact that negros lacks night vision.

	17-10-2003 01:42									#97
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I'm responding to different posts here, but . . .

the Holocaust SHOULD be taken seriously by everyone who has a sense of respect for human dignity and justice.


Also, what are the important differences in the scholarly studies of the Holocaust between the Jewish intellectual communities of United States, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and Israel??

Some have already discussed Israel in this aspect, but what about the other Jewish communities of the world, and their persepctive?

	17-10-2003 02:02									#98
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I'm responding to different posts here, but . . . the Holocaust SHOULD be taken seriously by everyone who has a sense of respect for human dignity and justice. Also, what are the important differences in the scholarly studies of the Holocaust between the Jewish intellectual communities of United States, Western Europe, Eastern Europe, and Israel?? Some have already discussed Israel in this aspect, but what about the other Jewish communities of the world, and their persepctive?

Uh, unfortunately there ARE no important Jewish communities in eastern europe

I cant speak to historical studies, but certainly in terms of philosphical and theological responses the dialogue trancends national boundaries. Fackenheim for example taught in both Canada and Israel. Wiesel teaches in the US, but writes in French. AFAIK theres less straight history on the topic done by Jews in western europe than philosophy (I suppose largely because of the greater focus of all French intellectuals, Jew and Gentile, on philosophy rather than history - if youre a French historian youre supposed to focus on local economic history, I suppose) Im not sure of any particular differences between Israeli and American Jewish historians, except I know one Israeli historian (whose name escapes me at the moment) wrote a one vol history of the holocaust that was much more critical of Orthodox religion then anything Ive seen written in the US.

	17-10-2003 02:10									#99
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Diffrences (if any) has to be divided into two questions. First there's the question of empirical studies. In other words; what sources are used in order to investigate the holocaust etcetra. Second, there's the question of interpetation of historical facts. As far as I've heard, there's no major diffrences between people from different communities in the first question. Even if their results might differ somewhat. The holocaust happened; end of story. In the second question - and here we have such fields as philosophy and the current debate here about in what ways the holocaust is unique or not - the debate differs quite a lot depending on who's talking. For obvious reasons the holocaust means different things for some that's part of a german community than for someone that's part of a jewish community. In this particular perspective the essence of the holocaust is relative.

	17-10-2003 14:22									#100
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark they may have been nationalistic (notably towards Poles ) but this does not mean they inclined towards mass murder. Even Daniel Goldhagen, who claims (in his controversial "Ordinary Germans" ) that "exterminationist antisemitism" was part of pre-Nazi German culture, essentially discusses the situation during the 1920's, NOT pre-1914.

I've read something about a revolt in one german colony in Africa. guess what Germans did with the tribe.

	17-10-2003 16:02									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson I've read something about a revolt in one german colony in Africa. guess what Germans did with the tribe.

The Herero genocide in Namibia, 1904-1907:

http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_namibia1.html

Of a population of 80000, 80% were killed. Add to that about half of the Nama people.

I would say there were plenty of early indicators as to where Germany was headed, without saying at all that it was an inevitability.

	17-10-2003 17:21									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Really? I wonder why that was? Perhaps victim status wasn't as desirable back then as it is now.

OTOH it may be that Jews were still reviled in American society and felt that they couldn't afford to risk the possibility that overpublicizing the Holocaust might actually increase anti-semitic sentiments. I was in grade school in the 1950s. I remember that in those days people would use the word "Jew" as a perjorative without shame. Everyone knew that to be cheated was to be "jewed". In my school certain groups were allowed to leave early on friday for religious reasons. This included Jews and Catholics, who would go from their public school to their church or synagogue schools on Friday afternoon. The fact that some of the kids who were getting up and leaving on Friday afternoons were Jewish wasn't mentioned, they were lumped in with the Catholic group to avoid drawing attention to them. In the 1950s also there were still places, like country clubs, that discriminated against Jews.
Things have changed alot in American society over the past 40 years.

	17-10-2003 18:59									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Kitschum The Herero genocide in Namibia, 1904-1907: http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_namibia1.html Of a population of 80000, 80% were killed. Add to that about half of the Nama people. I would say there were plenty of early indicators as to where Germany was headed, without saying at all that it was an inevitability.

By the same reasoning you could say that Belgium was headed down that road.

While the argument might be made that Congo was not an official colony of Belgium at the time, I doubt very much that "ordinary Germans" had any more idea of what was going on in Namibia than Belgians did what was going on in the Congo.

	17-10-2003 18:59									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Things have changed alot in American society over the past 40 years.

Yes they have. G-d bless America!

	17-10-2003 21:35									#105
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark By the same reasoning you could say that Belgium was headed down that road.

Perhaps it did, but didn't have any chance to prove it

	17-10-2003 22:01									#106
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark By the same reasoning you could say that Belgium was headed down that road.

Already in 1904 Germany perpetrated genocide on people they considered sub-human to prepare the land for German settlers. This rapacious imperialism certainly influenced the Nazis. Altough not on the same absolute scale as the Jewish genocide, nor as close to home, as opposed to what Germany has done after WW2 the ideas and institutions that caused the Namibian genocides weren't examined to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

Anyway, it might have appeared like it but I wasn't making the point of early indicators solely from that example. German nationalism, from at least Fichte on, was of a very mystical and exclusive kind. This might in part have been a consequence of that for a long time "Germany" existed only in dreams (the lost homeland) and not on maps. Those two traits made it all the more susceptible to racism and nazism, which excells at mysticism and is obsessed with exclusion (which became extermination). Your bringing up Belgium is interesting, but the crises that rocked Germany, if only by virtue of its size and position at the center of Europe, brought to action forces much more cataclysmic than could ever have appeared in small, wedged-in Belgium.

	17-10-2003 22:16									#107
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quote: The thing about the Holocaust that is unique is that it was a genocide based on pure racism.

If that's the case, what about in the American South with the blacks and the Native Americans? Different volumes, same attitude.

Genocide requires that one strips a person of all their legal rights, and this happened in the US to blacks and Native Americans, just as it happened to the Jews in the Holocaust.

	17-10-2003 22:24									#108
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Ben definitely has a good point there . . .

	17-10-2003 22:25									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Kitschum Already in 1904 Germany perpetrated genocide on people they considered sub-human to prepare the land for German settlers. This rapacious imperialism certainly influenced the Nazis. Altough not on the same absolute scale as the Jewish genocide, nor as close to home, as opposed to what Germany has done after WW2 the ideas and institutions that caused the Namibian genocides weren't examined to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Anyway, it might have appeared like it but I wasn't making the point of early indicators solely from that example. German nationalism, from at least Fichte on, was of a very mystical and exclusive kind. This might in part have been a consequence of that for a long time "Germany" existed only in dreams (the lost homeland) and not on maps. Those two traits made it all the more susceptible to racism and nazism, which excells at mysticism and is obsessed with exclusion (which became extermination). Your bringing up Belgium is interesting, but the crises that rocked Germany, if only by virtue of its size and position at the center of Europe, brought to action forces much more cataclysmic than could ever have appeared in small, wedged-in Belgium.

French nationalism included mystical, militarist elements, and post 1870 included as many anti-semitic elements as German nationalism did.

and Germany also had plenty of rational, liberal, "klein deutsch" nationalists as well as the radicals.

In any case my original point was that the Nazi holocaust was shocking because it was out of character. I think my point stands, despite mystical German nationalism, the massacre of the Hereros etc.

Massacring 3rd world natives had been part and parcel of western imperialism for a long time. The Belgian congo atrocities, different in kind from the Herero massacres, but on a far larger scale, had taken place only a few years earlier. The massacre at Wounded Knee, perpetrated by my own country happened just a few years earlier. Britain perhaps was further along towards humaness (last big massacres I can think of were after Sepoy mutiny, almost 50 years earlier - when were the last Aborigine massacres in Australia?). Not sure about France. Perhaps Germany was behind the curve on humaneness in colonial possesions. There is no way someone could have forecast in 1907 that Germans would treat people who had been full German citizens for decades, who were at the center of German financial and cultural life, the same way they treated an obscure people in a far off desert(and by the way, even a pessimist like Herzl did not forecast it - he expected genocide in Russia, and the west closing its doors, and perhaps the spread of popular antisemitism - not state sanctioned genocide in Germany or anywhere else in the West) . Ditto with regard to mystical German nationalism and antisemitism. ISTR that the most aggressive antisemitic policies proposed in Germany were to cut off Jewish immigration - and that failed. Similarly actions against Poles involved pressures to assimilate.

	17-10-2003 22:26									#110
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I fully agree. The US are just as bad as the Nazis. There, I said it.

	17-10-2003 22:33									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If that's the case, what about in the American South with the blacks and the Native Americans? Different volumes, same attitude. Genocide requires that one strips a person of all their legal rights, and this happened in the US to blacks and Native Americans, just as it happened to the Jews in the Holocaust.

well lets see despite terrible losses in the middle passage and under slavery, and lynchings, there was no organized campaign of genocide against the blacks. Such genocidal acts against native americans as took place where not centrally planned and coordinated, much less were they central to the ideology of any US govt.

And they were in character for all western govts at those times. Slavery had existed in the west since roman times - african slavery was started by a Spain that still knew medieval slavery and serfdom. It was continuous. The history of the abolition of slaverly was a long slow march of progress. First it was abolished here, then there, etc till it was gone. Ditto attacks on non European native peoples. The Nazi holocaust happened in a county where such things DID NOT HAPPEN - and hadnt happened in HUNDREDS of years. It was an unpredictable jump backwards - an impossibility - a "wonder" if you'll forgive the wording.

	17-10-2003 22:34									#112
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quote: Genocide requires that one strips a person of all their legal rights, and this happened in the US to blacks and Native Americans, just as it happened to the Jews in the Holocaust.

No. NA and AA did not have any rights to begin with, really, to have taken away. What the Nazi's did was a kin to entrapment

"Come, make our country great... O-kay, thanks, We kill you now"

where we were just murderous bastards

To the blacks:
"Come, make our country great or we will kill you"

To the American Indians:
"Thanks, now go away, or we will kill you."

Totally different.

	17-10-2003 22:35									#113
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again dont misunderstand me - Im not saying these other instances arent genocides. Im just saying that they are different in IMPORTANT ways (and not just scale) from the Nazi destruction of the Jews and the Roma.

	17-10-2003 22:37									#114
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quote: again dont misunderstand me - Im not saying these other instances arent genocides

Ditto

	17-10-2003 22:39									#115
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again Ben, I must ask that you read Fackenheim - his point is that the Nazi holocaust must be viewed with "radical amazement" What i see here is an attempt to reduce to part of the normal course of history, which is full of atrocities. I really cant make the argument as well as he can. If you are at all concerned with these issues, you should read his book.