16-10-2003 06:24									#61
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LotM:

quote: we seem to be talking past each other. I thought the original question was "was the nazi destruction of the Jews a unique genocide" NOT "was the destruction of the Jews uniquely genocide"

Sorry. I wanted to address Che's points on Cambodia.

As for the Holocaust being a unique genocide, if we can agree that unique in no way implies greater value than I think we can reach some sort of agreement.

Otherwise, I'm not really talking past you since unique can also mean 'unparalleled.'

quote: However some genocides are more noteworthy to historians than others - and raise issues that others do not. Is that case with regard to the extermination of European Jewry - was it truely unique, or are we misled because of our western perspective.

That's an interesting thought, from my own field of study. There are issues that are raised by the Holocaust, unique events that I do agree with your analysis. I just don't think that any of the points you have listed qualify.

What sets the Holocaust apart is not the magnitude, more died in the Soviet Union. What sets the Holocaust apart is not the systematic destruction, nor the targets.
Assessing the nitty gritty, the hows and whys is where you get into the real uniqueness of the holocaust.

How did the Nazis strip Jews of their rights without incurring the wrath of the public? Why did not the people speak out against Hitler? Pol Pot never had a democracy to contend with, neither did the Rwandans. How were the modern scientific methods applied to killing Jews, and establishing the whole system of the work camps.

These are the real unique features of the holocaust.

	16-10-2003 06:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun And what about homosexuals who were victims of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany?

Is this the wanting to be recognized as part of a victim class?

	16-10-2003 06:33									#63
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara [Q] Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Assuming the CIA was wrong, most of the deaths came from starvation. The starvation was caused by people by lowered productivity, which occured when the US bombed the bejeezuz out of Cambodia in the early 1970s and Cambodea went from an grain exporting country to a grain importing one. This led to the instability which enabled the KR to topple Lon Nol (Sihanok having been overthrown by LN). Factor in the complete stupidity of cutting yourself off from the outside world and you have a great recipe for famine.

fatuous. But of course you live in a lefty conspiracy world. Little indy media weenie

	16-10-2003 06:38									#64
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok -- thanks for your thoughts. But I also thought about something else . . . . To what extent did a number of Jews felt that they could only survive by helping administer the ghettos and concentration camps of Nazi Germany? Such as the kapos, for instance. They were only deluding themselves by thinking they were indispenable in the eyes of the SS and other staff. Also, nye brought up the basic perspective of Asians in regards to the Holocaust, which seems to make sense. An event always seems more important to the people involved, than those from the outside -- generally, speaking, I guess. But what is also interesting is that Japan wants the world to focus on her World War II involvement as being victims of a nuclear holocaust, rather than remembering the crimes that Japan committed against the Chinese civilian population, as well as POWS of China, Great Britain, India, United States, and Australia. I guess this brings up the question as to how does the process of identification based on victims and perpetrators affect human history?

Yeah, the Japs are worms on that issue. Had a friend who was getting **** when she was over there. Told here she should just say, "Remember Pearl Harbor!"

Go after us with a knife and we'll escalate and naplam your babies. So stay the **** dormant.

That and the picture of Macarthur with the Emperor!

	16-10-2003 06:41									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi What sets the Holocaust apart is not the magnitude, more died in the Soviet Union. What sets the Holocaust apart is not the systematic destruction, nor the targets. Assessing the nitty gritty, the hows and whys is where you get into the real uniqueness of the holocaust. How did the Nazis strip Jews of their rights without incurring the wrath of the public? Why did not the people speak out against Hitler? Pol Pot never had a democracy to contend with, neither did the Rwandans. How were the modern scientific methods applied to killing Jews, and establishing the whole system of the work camps. These are the real unique features of the holocaust.

Correct. The systematic, scientific application of killing machinery to citizens of a advanced state with an enlightened citizenry. That killing was performed along racial lines by the state with the tacit approval by other citizens of that state. The killings, and willing complicity in them spread to other states and citizens of those states. It is compounded by the fact, among others, that many who were killed were refused asylum in other 'enlightened' states due to their race. It is quite frankly, chilling.

	16-10-2003 07:40									#66
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Is this the wanting to be recognized as part of a victim class?

. . . which is why the Holocaust seems to have so many important questions for us today in terms of the dynamics and issues with identifying people as victims and perpetrators.

So for myself, am I purposely setting out to identify myself as a victim? And am I doing so because of real threats from political and religious leaders, or have I created my identity on falsehoods?? What interests do I have in defining myself as a victim?
These are really rhetorical questions that no one can really answer for me, but just an example of how victimization and perpetration can be better understood for us today, by examining the Holocaust and its aftermath.


There should be more studies by historians on how the process of identifying with victimization and pepetration has had an effect on human society and its development.

	16-10-2003 07:42									#67
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Correct. The systematic, scientific application of killing machinery to citizens of a advanced state with an enlightened citizenry. That killing was performed along racial lines by the state with the tacit approval by other citizens of that state. The killings, and willing complicity in them spread to other states and citizens of those states. It is compounded by the fact, among others, that many who were killed were refused asylum in other 'enlightened' states due to their race. It is quite frankly, chilling.

Not only those points, but to what extent should the United States and other Allies have intervened to put a halt to the Holocaust without diverting too much resources to the actual war effort?

	16-10-2003 08:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Little indy media weenie

So *******, what parts do you disagree with? That the CIA was wrong? That the United Stated bombed the bejeezuz out of Cambodia? Do you deny that the U.S. supported and encouraged Lon Nol's coup against Sihanook? Do you deny that Cambodia went from a grain exporting country to a grain importing country?

Maybe you should learn something about the Indochina war before slinging insults.

	16-10-2003 08:58									#69
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BK, from your second link, "When this estimate of the Khmer Rouge death toll was first publicized in the early 1980s, commentators in the West almost universally dismissed it as a product of “Vietnamese propaganda,” an invented figure designed strictly for political purposes. In later years, more sober analysts examining this three million figure also discounted it, basing their much lower estimates of the death toll on interview data, demographic analyses and other statistical methodologies." It's only been in the last decade the a systematic survey of the Kmher Rouge's activities have been possible. Since I haven't studied the Cambodia situation for over a decade . . .

	16-10-2003 09:10									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, I agree that the enslavement and discrimination against blacks in this country was very much like the Holocost.

I must of missed the part where Americans made it their goal to eliminate the african race.

	16-10-2003 09:46									#71
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Just an observation....

Has anyone noticed that the term "Holocaust" used to mean specifically mean the Nazi Holocaust perpetrated against Jews, Gays, Political Dissenters and other groups is now being used by everyone under the sun to describe situations of much smaller magnitude? I'm beginning to think that other terms, like Shoah, should be used in order to specifically differentiate the Nazi Holocaust from other "holocausts". In attempting to put it in context, it seems to have been people have lost their perspective.

	16-10-2003 09:53									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Just an observation.... Has anyone noticed that the term "Holocaust" used to mean specifically mean the Nazi Holocaust perpetrated against Jews, Gays, Political Dissenters and other groups is now being used by everyone under the sun to describe situations of much smaller magnitude? I'm beginning to think that other terms, like Shoah, should be used in order to specifically differentiate the Nazi Holocaust from other "holocausts". In attempting to put it in context, it seems to have been people have lost their perspective.

good point . . . .

	16-10-2003 10:38									#73
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quote: It's only been in the last decade the a systematic survey of the Kmher Rouge's activities have been possible. Since I haven't studied the Cambodia situation for over a decade . . .

Well to be fair it always helps to have good sources.

I never claimed 3 million, and it seems the revised numbers reflect anywhere from 1.5-1.7 million. It's always nice to have more data than less, to get a better grasp of the real tragedy rather than one more nebulous.

As for the term Holocaust, I think it ought to be reserved for the Nazi atrocities, but that the term genocide ought to apply to a broader spectrum of tragedies that meet the criteria of a systematic extermination of a group of people by the state.

	16-10-2003 13:13									#74
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quote: 1. The Nazi holocaust is unique, because it was out of historical charecter. It was commited by one of the most advanced, civilized peoples on the planet

It was not out of context. Were the Germans one of the most civiolised nations, it is a matter of discussion.
But since XIX century, they were in much part heavily nationalistic, and that their hatred turned to Jews may be some suprise, but their general behaviour doesn't have to be completely suprising

	16-10-2003 13:33									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Also, I agree that the enslavement and discrimination against blacks in this country was very much like the Holocost.

If you meant "very different" but still morally reprehensible, then I would agree.

	16-10-2003 13:44									#76
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Cambodia: 1. Complete eradication of certain individuals. (by education) You aren't educated by birth. It's something you chose to have. You don't (often) choose to be a Jew or a Roma. Furthermore, they did not try and kill off intellectuals in other countries. quote: 2. Organised by the state, eg systematic. The widely believed two million deaths mark was a flip comment made by a French journalist in the 1970s, who was in no position to know. It has since come to be accepted as gospel. AFAIK, the only attempt to try and find out how many people died under KR rule was by the CIA, who estimated that about 40,000 were died in the killing fields. The organized killing was actually very small. Assuming the CIA was wrong, most of the deaths came from starvation. The starvation was caused by people by lowered productivity, which occured when the US bombed the bejeezuz out of Cambodia in the early 1970s and Cambodea went from an grain exporting country to a grain importing one. This led to the instability which enabled the KR to topple Lon Nol (Sihanok having been overthrown by LN). Factor in the complete stupidity of cutting yourself off from the outside world and you have a great recipe for famine. quote: 3. Efficient, you still cannot find doctors today of a certain age. Not efficient. They determined who was or was not an intellectual by looking at their hands or if they had eye glasses.

The lowest estimates that I've seen indicate that about a million were killed. You can't just choose the ones who were murdered out of hand, because between the panic that that caused and the starvation of people under direct government control the numbers increase dramatically as you say. By comparison U.S. Indian policy was nearly faultless.

As for Sianhouk's regime, the reason Lon Nol and a lot of others wanted to overthrow him is that he allowed the NVA to take over the Eastern third of his country. Not only did this directly impact the economy negatively, but it brought about a belated reaction from the Americans and South Vietnamese as well. Sianhouk was also allowing his ports to supply NVA forces directly, from Pnom Pen to the Parrot's Beak area by truck. This was the last straw for the U.S. Sianhouk was a scumbag and it is a shame that he managed to survive so many years after he destroyed his own country by trying to be slick.

	16-10-2003 13:56									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I would appreciate more thoughts from my last post . . .

So would I.

	16-10-2003 14:09									#78
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok -- thanks for your thoughts. But I also thought about something else . . . . To what extent did a number of Jews felt that they could only survive by helping administer the ghettos and concentration camps of Nazi Germany? Such as the kapos, for instance. They were only deluding themselves by thinking they were indispenable in the eyes of the SS and other staff.

Many weren't deluding themselves at all. A fair percentage of the camp survivors worked for the camps, and it is from many of them that we learned the grisly details of how the camps worked. For a good book on this subject (a personal narrative rather than a study) I suggest "This Way for the Gas Ladies and Gentlemen", by Tadeusz Borowski.

Here's a link to a very short biography of the author:

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~clit121/Gas/Biograph.htm

	16-10-2003 14:52									#79
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quote: Originally posted by TCO No. He is trying to get them to THINK. And to examine the ways in which history can be slanted and/or used for political purposes. I have been after Fun's cherry azz to take historiography for a while.

	16-10-2003 19:22									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Timexwatch Just an observation.... Has anyone noticed that the term "Holocaust" used to mean specifically mean the Nazi Holocaust perpetrated against Jews, Gays, Political Dissenters and other groups is now being used by everyone under the sun to describe situations of much smaller magnitude? I'm beginning to think that other terms, like Shoah, should be used in order to specifically differentiate the Nazi Holocaust from other "holocausts". In attempting to put it in context, it seems to have been people have lost their perspective.

There are other reasons to not use the word holocaust. Holocaust is a greek word, used in translations of the bible, meaning a sacrifice that is completely destroyed. The use of a word for sacrifice in this context is troubling. The Hebrew "shoah" means simply "disaster".

	16-10-2003 19:26									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Heresson It was not out of context. Were the Germans one of the most civiolised nations, it is a matter of discussion. But since XIX century, they were in much part heavily nationalistic, and that their hatred turned to Jews may be some suprise, but their general behaviour doesn't have to be completely suprising

they may have been nationalistic (notably towards Poles ) but this does not mean they inclined towards mass murder. Even Daniel Goldhagen, who claims (in his controversial "Ordinary Germans" ) that "exterminationist antisemitism" was part of pre-Nazi German culture, essentially discusses the situation during the 1920's, NOT pre-1914.

	16-10-2003 19:37									#82
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun good point . . . .

No it isn't. Holocaust means firestorm, not genocide. The word Holocaust is applied specifically to the Nazi genocide because of the ovens.

	16-10-2003 21:35									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia The holocaust is probably over-hyped in America because some of the powerful media outlets here are controlled by jews.

Well that's spoiled my sunny good mood. How exactly do you "overhype" the systematic murder of 6 million innocent people?

	16-10-2003 21:36									#84
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quote: By comparison U.S. Indian policy was nearly faultless.

Similar actions, similar attitude, just different numbers.

You could have signed treaties rather than killing them wholesale. Most of Canada did that except for my own home province.

	16-10-2003 22:15									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Well that's spoiled my sunny good mood. How exactly do you "overhype" the systematic murder of 6 million innocent people?

10 to 11 million, Laz. Don't forget the non-Jews who died in the Holocaust.

	16-10-2003 22:24									#86
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From the report the UN group of experts



"35. Finally, scholars and Governments have offered differing totals for the number of Cambodians killed by the Khmer Rouge. Scholars have separately arrived at figures of 1.5 million and nearly 1.7 million.4 There was a sharp disparity among victim groups. One study posits close to a 100 per cent death rate for rural and urban ethnic Vietnamese, 25 per cent for urban and rural Khmer "new people", and 15 per cent for rural Khmer "base people".5 Overall, the various estimates point to a death rate of approximately 20 per cent of the April 1975 population of 7.3 to 7.9 million people. Historians of Cambodia have rejected the figure of 2 to 3 million that has often been used by the Governments in Cambodia since 1979, as well as in some popular accounts.'"



Note well: "One study posits close to a 100 per cent death rate for rural and urban ethnic Vietnamese,"

	16-10-2003 22:25									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Is it because we're whiter?

Arafat is probably the whitest guy I've ever seen.

	16-10-2003 22:29									#88
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From the report of the UN group of experts


"The misery caused by the methods used by the Khmer Rouge in implementing its policy of transforming the Cambodian economy constituted the single largest source of deaths during the Khmer Rouge period. Starvation, disease and physical exhaustion, caused by overwork and inadequate food, medicine and sanitation, killed hundreds of thousands. According to witness reports, the Khmer Rouge overseers also routinely killed many thousands who refused or could no longer work, often murdering their family members as well."

	16-10-2003 22:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia quote: quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark It was probably even more true in the 1950's, when said outlets tended to ignore the holocaust. Really? I wonder why that was? Perhaps victim status wasn't as desirable back then as it is now.

Israel didn't get as much criticism for their treatment of the Palestinians back then either.



Critics: "Hey that was a bit too brutal"
Israel: "6 million"
Critics: "Oh. Carry on."

OK I'm exaggerating here but I think there's some truth to it.

	16-10-2003 22:42									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf Israel didn't get as much criticism for their treatment of the Palestinians back then either. Critics: "Hey that was a bit too brutal" Israel: "6 million" Critics: "Oh. Carry on." OK I'm exaggerating here but I think there's some truth to it.

BS. First, this started, IIUC, in the early '60s, before the occupation of the west bank and Gaza. Secondly, to the extent 1967 got Jews thinking more about the holocaust, it was the danger to ISRAEL in 1967, when it was feared (inaccurately as it turned out) that Israel could lose and a new holocaust happen.

Israeli actions wrt to the Pals are justified (or not) by the actions of the Pals, not by the events of 1939-45 (though those do underscore the need for Israeli security) Certainly no Israeli govt prior to 1977 (when Begin was elected) used anything even resembling the above rhetorical strategy. And even Begin, though very aware of the Holocaust and often using it in his rhetoric, never AFAIK justified an admitted brutality that way. What you have stated is not merely an exaggeration, but, AFAIK, a slander.