30-10-2003 19:54									#391
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My source was impeccable - the BBC. For all it's faults I trust it to quote accurately.

Interestingly Collins wears one of the few shirts where I would rate the Welsh incumbent as probably the better player - bit I suspect one out of 22 may not be enough?

*Edit* You know what I got that wrong - Sidoli in the second row is more than a match for Mr Williams. 2 out of 22. Nice odds.

	30-10-2003 20:32									#392
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No one talked about Canada - Tonga, has someone seen the game?

	30-10-2003 20:54									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Havak My source was impeccable - the BBC. For all it's faults I trust it to quote accurately.

Interesting that. Ever heard of David Long? He's a respected NZ Journalist. Now I've already had my fix of pommy bashing for one day, but this is what he had to say about the pommy Journos in his 'World Cup Diary’ column:

quote: English players and coaches are often accused of being arrogant, but I've come to the conclusion that it's not them who are the arrogant ones, but the journalists who follow them. English rugby journalists are a very tight knit group who rarely socialise with media from other countries. They are all, without exception, middle class and probably public school educated and take great enjoyment out of asking 'clever' questions to the players. They also help build up the siege mentality in the England players by picking up any minor criticism of the England team, multiplying it and asking questions like "how do you cope with the constant attacks from Australasian journalists?" Another question that got up my goat was when Jason Robinson was asked, "how many tries would England have scored if South Africa didn't keep using illegal tactics." I considered asking, "how many tries would the Springboks have scored if England players didn't tackle South African players without the ball?" But I decided not to in the end.

See Havak? No wonder you get so wound up by the BBC.

	30-10-2003 21:24									#394
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Actually I think he illustrates beautifully why I trust the BBC more than Australasian journos. Pure conjecture and unattributed accusations were all I saw there - did you think I was meant to be blown away by the 'substance' of his allegations?

A piece like that needs Names to the quotes dear boy - identifiers if you like! Without them it's nothing but meaningless hearsay.

Oh and please define the parameters too - what is 'middle class' and how stupid is it to say 'probably' all public school educated? I absolutely guarantee to you that he is substantially wrong on both counts (our tabloids are out there in force after all as witnessed by the question he related).

What kind of educated journalistic says 'got up my goat' incidentally? And ultimately what kind of decent journalistic chokes and doesn't ask his end question - any self respecting Brit would have.

He puts your own team under the spotlight as well does he? Asks Doug how many tries he would have scored if England were not slowing down ball illegally? To which a disgruntled Brit journalist would ask how many fewer tries would Doug score if he received ball whilst actually onside.

Great fun - keep 'em coming.

	31-10-2003 01:39									#395
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I didn't see Canada-Tonga (obviously, Tamerlin), but read that the Tongans wer outclassed and a bit brutal. Charron was hurt, and they got at least one yellow card.

On a sidenote, Romania crushed Namibia 37-7 (32-0 at half time). Poor Namibians.

I'll be watching France tomorrow fearing that Yachvili might be able to get us a loss. He's not alone, though, but the team never played together, and may suffer too many fades for our own good. (this won't make a good workday for me but well...)

Havak, it's totally impossible to support the Welsh against NZ unless you're Welsh. They'll be totally crushed.

	31-10-2003 04:04									#396
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin No one talked about Canada - Tonga, has someone seen the game?

Yes, I saw quite a bit of the first half and the last 20 minutes. Good contest. I have to disagree about the Tongans being outclassed. They had enough of the ball in good attacking situations, but they were hopeless in the finishing department. The Canadian defence also stood up well. Ultimately, the Canadians were simply fitter than the Tongans and finished the game too strongly.

Skipper Al Chiron was carried off in a bad way after he was hit with a shoulder in the face. He took the ball, turned, ducked, and ran straight into the Tongan #10's shoulder. It was all such a flurry of movement that it was hard to tell, even in slow motion replay, whether it was a shoulder charge. I suspect it probably was. The Tongan didn't look like he planned using his arms in the tackle. Another Tongan was yellow carded for a very late shoulder charge on one of the Canadian players after he'd disposed of the ball. Those incidents aside, it was a relatively clean game.

	31-10-2003 04:11									#397
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quote: Originally posted by LDiCesare On a sidenote, Romania crushed Namibia 37-7 (32-0 at half time). Poor Namibians.

Yes, I watched the hour highlights package. The Namibians were never in the race. Romania was too big, too strong, and - relatively speaking - had too much skill. Still, at least the Namibian player who had represented his country at the Cricket World Cup took the field in the second half, meaning he has now represented his country in two sports.

The match was played in Tasmania, where there is only a very small local rugby comp, but a capacity crowd - 18,000 - turned out to watch the game. It was very well promoted.

	31-10-2003 04:17									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Great fun - keep 'em coming.

Okay.

quote: Hair-brained scheme England coach Clive Woodward is an odd-bod. His latest brain twister is not letting photographers shoot from behind him at media conferences. At some press conferences, he actually ropes off the area behind him. Why? A bald spot at the back of his head? Worried about being back stabbed in the back? A visual awareness exercise? No-one in the UK media knows. We'll continue our investigation.

	31-10-2003 04:23									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin If you have seen the game you also know Argentina could have won and that it couldn't have been considered as a theft.

My point, exactly. I saw the whole game.

quote: You like to live dangerously.

So I can tell my step daughter you're 185cm, 95kg, with the looks of a young Jean Paul Belmondo?

	31-10-2003 06:21									#400
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quote: Originally posted by finbar So I can tell my step daughter you're 185cm, 95kg, with the looks of a young Jean Paul Belmondo?

You can always tell her so... but if you tell her that I am 180cm, 60kg, not so good looking as Jean-Paul Belmondo (though I am much younger than him) and that I am currently unemployed you would be closer to the truth.


Though it is closer to the truth I think that the above sentence also makes me an immediate candidate for a move backwards to the second division of would be step son-in-law.

	31-10-2003 06:30									#401
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Well rest easy – it is starting to look like the points deduction is being seriously considered. The entire SH should be ashamed of itself if it has to defeat teams off the field like this. England commit an on field penalty offence and the result of the pool is proposed to be artificially changed. It so ludicrous it would be laughable if it wasn’t true.

I think I heard this morning that they're facing a 25k dollar fine and a 2 match suspension for the guy responsible. No points penalty.
I was still half though so I may be mistaken.


[Edit: As has been pointed out already. Should have read the rest of the thread more carefully. ]

quote: But the fundamental point remains an on field penalty offence cannot reverse the result of a game in disciplinary committee – it makes a mockery of the game of Rugby. Consider a final where NZ have won by two clear tries but do the same – and on appeal France are awarded the final – how ludicrous is it?

I disagree here. Imagine if England were playing a SH team with 16 players on the field for a significant portion of the match?
(And before you ask whether a SH ref counts - no he doesn't!)
The player doesn't need to score or do anything in particular, but he may still be marked whereas another player who happens to score isn't.
It'd be a completely unfair advantage with no way out but to impose a penalty off-field.
Given this you need to draw a line somewhere. ie: What period of play constitutes significant?
Englands relatively minor breach probably shouldn't have reversed a result but then it was a pretty close game...

quote: Can I remind you then that the punishment that moron received was hardly extreme.

True, but then he was a fan and the IRB was rather limited in what they could impose. A ban on Officials/players who did the same would have a far far greater effect.

	31-10-2003 07:40									#402
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Though it is closer to the truth I think that the above sentence also makes me an immediate candidate for a move backwards to the second division of would be step son-in-law.

On the contrary, a marriage of convenience is looking more and more on the cards!

	31-10-2003 08:07									#403
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If I tell you I am 36 years old and that I am still playing Role Playing Games or Wargames (you know the games in which you push little counters on a map) I hope it discredits me enough.

	31-10-2003 08:27									#404
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin If I tell you I am 36 years old and that I am still playing Role Playing Games or Wargames (you know the games in which you push little counters on a map)

If only I still had the time ...

	31-10-2003 09:11									#405
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You can't have a job, have a girlfriend and keep playing RPG and Wargames... it's like wanting the butter, the money of the butter and to f*** the dairywomen.

To feel secure I have renounced both.

	31-10-2003 09:50									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin You can't have a job, have a girlfriend and keep playing RPG and Wargames... it's like wanting the butter, the money of the butter and to f*** the dairywomen. To feel secure I have renounced both.

How are you at kissing airport tarmacs? I think you're lining up to be the next Pope!

	31-10-2003 13:30									#407
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Blew a gale in Sydney today - 100kph winds - and the wind is still howling. The France -v- USA match is being played about 2 hours south of Sydney and the stadium is right on the coast where the wind really howls. Don't expect too many goals and conversions!

	31-10-2003 13:59									#408
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quote: On a side note, Romania crushed Namibia 37-7 (32-0 at half time). Poor Namibians.

Elements of the Aussie media used the absolutely meaningless victory over Namibia to ‘prove’ that the world champions were back to their best according to something I heard on BBC Radio 5 Live last night.

On the same program it was alleged that there was a substitution issue in that match that led to the Australians also having XVI men on the pitch and questioning why exactly no fuss had been made of this? I think we all know the answer to that?

It was a fun show actually – Jonathan Pearce is quite Aussie in his broadcast style and he advised all the Aussie Journo’s (and they played a small sample of truly frightening nutters still moaning about England) to let the rugby be played on the field and shut their whining. Good advice – snowball in hells chance they will heed it.

I would also like to know Finbar where you heard that allegation Reddin had assaulted Walsh. You probably know by now it was totally without foundation and that in a ridiculous ‘playground’ moment Mr Walsh had actually squirted the contents of a water bottle at Reddin – there was no physical contact and Walsh is the one being punished for the incident. Reddin should consider libel action against the Journalist who raised this one?

quote: Havak, it's totally impossible to support the Welsh against NZ unless you're Welsh. They'll be totally crushed.

Its even worse than we feared LDiCesare as the Welsh have named a second XV!

Not that unexpected actually – Hansen rolling over for his own country so his team can be fresh and strong against us.

So we will learn nothing about NZ this weekend – we will have to wait for the QF to see what they are made of under at least some pressure.

quote: Okay.

But Finbar we knew Clive was odd already – you know I can’t defend that allegation!

It’s these NZ/Aussie journalists making sweeping statements about the British class and education system that I enjoy most. I suspect you know where I stand on both and I’ll be the first to criticise where it’s needed – but that Kiwi journalist was pretty amusing with his suppositions.

quote: I disagree here. Imagine if England were playing a SH team with 16 players on the field for a significant portion of the match? (And before you ask whether a SH ref counts - no he doesn't!)

Of course he does – no NH ref is likely to have cocked it up the way Kaplan did.

But consider this – 35 seconds on the field. At no point were 16 men involved in play – which kind of neuters your point. 16 men were briefly on the field before Samoa took a penalty because Tindall ran back on. And for this there is a witch hunt – for make no mistake that is what it was.

quote: Englands relatively minor breach probably shouldn't have reversed a result but then it was a pretty close game...

I would have settled for a 13 point win in my day.

Oh I am really going to enjoy it when you have your first wobble of the tournament – for make no mistake it will happen. Probably at the QF stage. Expect much sympathy from me.

quote: True, but then he was a fan and the IRB was rather limited in what they could impose. A ban on Officials/players who did the same would have a far far greater effect.

The IRB could do very little – but the South African Union was initially reluctant to take action – and did so only after external pressure. I think he is technically banned form all Rugby grounds or some such nonsense. It was a black incident as however poor McHugh can be you can’t have fans assaulting refs and national coaches then being very tardy to condemn it?

Of course you are right punishing officials sends a clear message. I suspect when you wrote it you expected an England official to be punished – but no doubt you are equally happy to see Walsh punished?

And I’m really happy today – I got marginally depressed last month when I officially qualified for Vets rugby, but am now thoroughly cheered up as Tamerlin is older than me (and somehow I had him pictured as a decade or so younger).



*edit* Especially for Finbar that he might laugh at Clive a little more as I certainly did

	31-10-2003 14:02									#409
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Blew a gale in Sydney today - 100kph winds - and the wind is still howling. The France -v- USA match is being played about 2 hours south of Sydney and the stadium is right on the coast where the wind really howls. Don't expect too many goals and conversions!

The wind has died down quite a bit now... anything is possible

	31-10-2003 14:36									#410
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quote: Originally posted by Havak So we will learn nothing about NZ this weekend – we will have to wait for the QF to see what they are made of under at least some pressure.

Somehow I rather suspect that you, personally, will never learn anything about NZ unless they stuff up somehow?

quote: It’s these NZ/Aussie journalists making sweeping statements about the British class and education system that I enjoy most. I suspect you know where I stand on both and I’ll be the first to criticise where it’s needed – but that Kiwi journalist was pretty amusing with his suppositions.

Hmmm. How about "How much of the English performance lately can you attribute to their change in policy that no longer requires the ball to travel backwards whilst in the process of being passed?"

quote: But consider this – 35 seconds on the field. At no point were 16 men involved in play – which kind of neuters your point. 16 men were briefly on the field before Samoa took a penalty because Tindall ran back on. And for this there is a witch hunt – for make no mistake that is what it was.

Let me clarify. I certainly don't think it should have cost points in any way shape or form. Nor any penalty beyond a minor reprimand (although the chap who "handled" an official is a rather different matter).
You do have to have some sort of punishment for such an infringement though, however minor the perceived effect, lest other teams start to have similar "accidents" with the rules that do have to be settled off the field. Nobody wants that.
I think you may exaggerate the point a bit with the term 'witch hunt' too. As far as the media is concerned, maybe, but then we don't really want to think about what would happen if they made all of the decisions now do we?

quote: Oh I am really going to enjoy it when you have your first wobble of the tournament – for make no mistake it will happen. Probably at the QF stage. Expect much sympathy from me.

You're already carving the word "sympathy" into that .50 calibre silver bullet then?

quote: The IRB could do very little – but the South African Union was initially reluctant to take action – and did so only after external pressure. I think he is technically banned form all Rugby grounds or some such nonsense. It was a black incident as however poor McHugh can be you can’t have fans assaulting refs and national coaches then being very tardy to condemn it?

Tardy?! You're not trying to imply that those champions of fair play, the Boks, weren't equally as outraged are you?

quote: but am now thoroughly cheered up as Tamerlin is older than me (and somehow I had him pictured as a decade or so younger).

Oddly enough he gave me the exact same impression until he first posted his actual age a thread or two back.
Probably has something to do with all of the

	31-10-2003 14:59									#411
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quote: Somehow I rather suspect that you, personally, will never learn anything about NZ unless they stuff up somehow?

You misunderstand me – I respect them as a great rugger side. What annoys me is the attitude that seems to surface (not from you or Andydog I hasten to add – I’m talking media mainly!) that they are somehow Crown Princes and only need to serve time to be given the Cup at the end of November. It’s a dangerous attitude I think.

quote: "How much of the English performance lately can you attribute to their change in policy that no longer requires the ball to travel backwards whilst in the process of being passed?"

To which the reply is “yes Mitchell did great technical things for us in his time here – and has gone on the exceed them by some distance in his new post”

Forward passes are a problem throughout the tournament in all seriousness – and NZ are as guilty as anyone. If a ref finally clamps down on it that will cripple any big teams game.

quote: although the chap who "handled" an official is a rather different matter).

He didn’t touch him. It was, how shall we say, totally ‘made up’.

quote: As far as the media is concerned, maybe, but then we don't really want to think about what would happen if they made all of the decisions now do we?

But surely they do in Australia? After all you swallowed the nonsense about Reddin assaulting Walsh even though I have now corrected that twice?

quote: You're already carving the word "sympathy" into that .50 calibre silver bullet then?

Ah you understand me too well.

quote: Tardy?! You're not trying to imply that those champions of fair play, the Boks, weren't equally as outraged are you?

I think some of them wanted to give him a medal.

As for Tamerlin – I am sure you are right!

	31-10-2003 15:00									#412
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quote: Originally posted by Havak A piece like that needs Names to the quotes dear boy - identifiers if you like! Without them it's nothing but meaningless hearsay.

Nonsense. It was his diary, dear boy, his observations about the English journos were just a few of many. The article wasn't dedicated to them by any means. So he reckons the Pommy journos a bunch of dickheads, why name names? Actually it's unusual for him to write in such a negative light, but from what I've seen, I'd say his observations hit the nail on the head.

To depart from Havak's 'SH Conspiracy against England' theory that he keeps bashing us with, the real worst enemy of the English is their media. They build their sportsmen up into gods, only to crucify them when they inevitably loose. They frequently distort facts and write in provocative emotive tones so as to wind up Joe Public and ultimately sell more papers. Their tabloids are nothing more than an embarrassment in my eyes – 99% of the time the articles in those are pure fiction. I wouldn’t be seen dead with the Sun – it’s a comic book, not a newspaper.

quote: What kind of educated journalistic says 'got up my goat' incidentally?

Aw, come on! That’s a classic call! Don’t tell me it didn’t make you smile. I guess that’s more Kiwi humour than English.

Tell me Havak, are you one of those ‘Royalist’ nutters?

	31-10-2003 15:35									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Havak but am now thoroughly cheered up as Tamerlin is older than me

That makes me, if I'd been precocious, old enough to be your father! Off to bed without any dinner!

	31-10-2003 15:40									#414
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quote: I'd say his observations hit the nail on the head.

Um - actually accusations without attributing opinions reported as ‘global’ is appalling journalism regardless of whether it is presented as a diary or a traditional article surely? He came across as the inarticulate illiterate one to me.

You liked what he said – it resonated with what you would like to believe - and that’s fine. It’s a free world (apparently).

Hell who am I kidding – what he said bothered me very little but I thought you might like me to pick it apart?

quote: Their tabloids are nothing more than an embarrassment in my eyes – 99% of the time the articles in those are pure fiction. I wouldn’t be seen dead with the Sun – it’s a comic book, not a newspaper.

I don’t read tabloids – nor do I argue with what you say. Our print media is generally appalling. Large parts of it are owned by the same ex-Australian who makes portions of the Aussie and NZ press gutter fodder too.

This idea that English journo’s are **** heads – and Kiwi ones aren’t – bit Xenophobic maybe?

Out TV journalism on the other hand in a order of magnitude ‘better’ than the crap I saw in Australia – thanks god for the BBC! I’ve not had the joy of seeing Kiwi TV so don’t know where this ranks?

quote: Aw, come on! That’s a classic call! Don’t tell me it didn’t make you smile. I guess that’s more Kiwi humour than English.

Smile – yes. But you said it was serious Professional critique of his English colleagues not a piss take.

Not bad that - I might send it to a few royalists for comment.

As fro me I am a full blooded Republican and an actual Socialist (as in I sit at the centre of old labour and believe in mutual social responsibility). There is therefore little room for me in the UK right now.

It does mean in addition by the way that if I thought your Kiwi friend was right – that all our journo’s are all stuck up public school nobs - I would have said so. I have no love for the Class or Public school system. He really is wrong.

	31-10-2003 15:42									#415
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quote: Originally posted by Havak What annoys me is the attitude that seems to surface (not from you or Andydog I hasten to add – I’m talking media mainly!) that they are somehow Crown Princes and only need to serve time to be given the Cup at the end of November. It’s a dangerous attitude I think.

Curiously enough, we had your Paul Ackford's column in the Sydney Morning Herald constantly telling us how England were dead certs to win the Cup. One of his arguments was that they'd win because they were better prepared because they'd stayed in squillion dollar resorts preparing for the event. Oddly enough, the column hasn't appeared since the Samoa match.

	31-10-2003 15:54									#416
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Les Grenouilles 41 -d- Bush's Boys 14

Les Grenouilles got worse the further the game went. There was some terrific rugby from them in the first half, but the Americans pretty much matched them on the scoreboard in the second half, taking the attack to the French. The French defence was scrambling at best, letting two tries through, and they seemed to lose the plot themselves in attack. The Americans, backing up only 4 nights after the Japan match, should be proud of themselves.

I don't know how much of a concern it is for Laporte. It was very much a 2nd XV, with the Big Guns starting on the bench and staying there.

	31-10-2003 16:27									#417
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No Duck fat on toast for Havak's supper? Shame!

Thanks for actually naming a name Finbar – it gives me something to go at. Ackford, who writes for the Sunday Telegraph here, is not my favourite English journalist. Not much of a lock IMO, he never played for us again after that final you keep watching.

A graduate of Kent University in actual fact he indulges far too often in that kind of triumphalist and uber-optimistic nonsense that I so despise when I see it in your countrymen journalists. He was in fact the author of an amazing piece before the Bok game entitled “There is no way England can lose to the Boks”. As we all know when two teams take the field either can end up the loser. That’s the measure of the man.

So well done Finbar – a palpable hit!

As for the France game I think you are right to raise the question of how important it is for Laporte that his second XV are pretty pedestrian – not very I would suggest?

	31-10-2003 16:45									#418
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Um - actually accusations without attributing opinions reported as ‘global’ is appalling journalism regardless of whether it is presented as a diary or a traditional article surely? He came across as the inarticulate illiterate one to me.

Cripes I'm starting to feel a little tired. It was only his diary, not a piece of journalism. If I kept a diary it probably would also be full of inarticulate illiterate opinions. The point that seems to have been missed here is that he comments on how the English journalists are the ones blowing out of proportion minor SH criticism of the England team. That's what I'm saying I agree with, and yes I think he hits the nail on the head judging from the articles I read on the BBC website and the articles I read on NZ websites. Nothing xenophobic about that. Take a closer look at it if you fancy.

	31-10-2003 16:54									#419
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If he published it then it's a piece of journalism surely?

Reading the full thing he comes out with more credit - but he is still wrong about the background and education of our journalists.

Glad he likes Gomers though - and I did find the Tindall/Mitchell reference to rucking very interesting.

Time to perhaps shift the emphasis though?

With Paddy O'Brien taking the helm for Ireland-Australia the irish coach has raised the issue of interpretation again. If Finbar doesn't find it I'll post the quotes later.

Oh and Jonathan Davies has criticised Wales for their team choice calling it a surrender. Davies is a really nice bloke and talks a lot of sense - I think he has this one right.

Last edited by Havak on 31-10-2003 at 18:03

	31-10-2003 18:09									#420
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quote: Originally posted by finbar How are you at kissing airport tarmacs? I think you're lining up to be the next Pope!

I am not yet ready.

It seems that I have finally managed to disqualify myself as a step son-in-law.

quote: Oddly enough he gave me the exact same impression until he first posted his actual age a thread or two back.

I appear younger than I am.

quote: Hmmm. How about "How much of the English performance lately can you attribute to their change in policy that no longer requires the ball to travel backwards whilst in the process of being passed?"

Coming from a Southern Hemisphere heretic "C'est l'hôpital qui se moque de la charité" ("it is hospital mocking charity").

quote: No Duck fat on toast for Havak's supper? Shame!

No doubt allowed, he is British from head to toes and as such doesn't know what we can do with such a delicacy...



Appalling performance from the French reserve team, it only confirms what I already knew since a long time, that the replacements are not on par with the first choice players. Dimitri Yachvili is nothing more than a second division level player, the forwards are really less efficient, the centers are unable to pierce through a defence... add whatever you want.