28-10-2003 14:22									#301
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon Bok, Kiwi and Aussie immigrants want to play for England? Sounds like you've take a poll with all of the participants consisting of inebriated Southern hemisphere backpackers in lieu of immigrants ...

Hic!

	28-10-2003 14:26									#302
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quote: Originally posted by ravagon * ravagon makes another blatantly obvious effort to pull Tamerlin into the fray *

	28-10-2003 14:30									#303
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quote: As far as I am concerned I think this is a shame they have changed to numbers as they have thrown away a century old tradition to satisfy those that are striving to standardize everything.

TV. Southern Hemisphere. Take your pick. It was done because it was felt Joe Q Public would be confused unless he consistently saw 1-15 on shirts. As you say a long tradition for both ourselves and Bristol swept away in the name of growing the sport – a sacrifice we had to reluctantly accept. Jonno is still the D shirt to me however.

quote: You're a very slow learner, J****.

If you read what he is saying he is absolutely right – it was yourself who specifically brought hands in the ruck into the equation. He knows he would get pinged up here for that. He’s talking about the Maul killing crap like ‘truck and trailer’ – and frankly only the SH could come up with such a lame name for anything. Kaplan got this one wrong – totally wrong – and was clearly reffing the game to Eddie Jones instructions.

What a powerful little coach you have when he is dictating to referees? And well as they played are you trying to tell me there were no hands in the ruck from Samoa? When he bothered looking towards blue even Kaplan issued one or two warnings that way.

quote: Regardless, the consensus here is that it will probably only result in a reprimand. The Samoans don't want the matter taken any further.

It wouldn’t matter to me if they did – it’s not a points docking offence. Storm in a bleeding tea cup – wouldn’t even be an investigation were it a SANZAR nation I bet. Strange isn’t it that Samoa and England have come out of this with mutual respect and it is the Aussie media that is apparently behaving disgracefully – it’s being widely reported here that the Aussie media has gone rabid – any truth in that?

Who was it yesterday who said Clive didn’t praise Samoa post game? Quite wrong – I watched his post match interview again last night and he praised them to the hilt. It’s easy to see how the wrong impression can become so easily entrenched.

quote: Wonderful, good humoured atmosphere, apparently.

Absolute proof that the Wallabies are not involved then.

(sorry – could not resist that!)

quote: before retiring to a backroom and changing all of the respondees 'preferred country' answers to "England", cackling inanely all the while

You know that’s not a bad account of what happened. Except I didn’t need to change the responses too radically.

quote: I'm glad to hear it. Provided of course that those who weren't 'English born-and-bred' aren't excluded because of it.

And the circle turns back to the start.

quote: It did, of course, occur to you that having a single English parent meant also having a non-English parent?

Never assume anything – I could have a double figure IQ for all you know.

Yes the parental wriggle cuts both ways. But I’m fairly sure the Samoan brothers have not used this method anyway.

quote: Note: Certain English pundits have a tendency to interpret this latter choice as the player in question 'not being good enough to wear the white'

Oh guilty as charged. But it seems to rather mirror the attitude to kilted/pasta/shamrock/camombert kiwis I think?

quote: Okay now you can wipe all the sarcasm off your screen.

Heck no – it was beautifully done and worth preserving.

I’ve always wondered what you thought of the deserter who went the other way – that promising but unfulfilled young hooker (Paul?).

quote: The difference is that there are large Island communities in NZ. Mayhaps those Islanders playing for NZ are playing for them when they play for the AB's?

Come again? I was not claiming Islanders were not nationalistic. But what difference again – there are almost as many Irish nationals in the Home counties as in Dublin!

MJ briefly refers to the dangle of the black shirt in his face in one of his books – the one after the Lions tour of 2001 I think.

And could you please stop using Wilko in your arguments – cut him through the middle and you will find the red rose just like his brother. Use an example I wouldn’t care about losing. Mark Regan for example – or ‘Bath Reject’ as I prefer to call him. I’d pay you to discover he was Scottish.

quote: ravagon makes another blatantly obvious effort to pull Tamerlin into the fray[

I think he is largely on your side on this one anyway. Of course the French squad is not bad – perhaps as many as 27 of them were born French?

quote: And if you need motivation - picture how unbearable he's going to be if they get their act together and win the bloody thing!

Priceless stuff!

But I think you are safe at the moment. Ask me after the weekend. If Wales beat NZ then I’m going to get worried.

I may sidestep – but when tackled firmly and fairly I put my hands up. The parental wriggle cuts both ways – that’s a fair cop. Clearly anyone not choosing England is ‘not good enough to wear the white’. Or doesn’t like bitter.

I wonder if you would run through the Italian line up for me Finbar – I spotted at least two pasta Kiwi’s and a couple of Argentinians (including the fly half) when they played Wales. And I think Stoica the centre is Romanian. They might be the most ethnically diverse side in the cup?

	28-10-2003 14:40									#304
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quote: Originally posted by Havak I think he is largely on your side on this one anyway. Of course the French squad is not bad – perhaps as many as 27 of them were born French?

They are all playing in the French Championship and thus for the color of the Fédération Française de Rugby.

	28-10-2003 14:43									#305
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A nice simple answer. And one that if applied to England lets us instantly pick Kronfeld and Gibson.

Hmm - it may have some merit.

	28-10-2003 15:02									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Havak A nice simple answer. And one that if applied to England lets us instantly pick Kronfeld and Gibson. Hmm - it may have some merit.

You can take Castaignède if you want...

	28-10-2003 15:06									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Havak A nice simple answer. And one that if applied to England lets us instantly pick Kronfeld...

Is Kronfeld playing for the RFU for more than three years?

Hasn't Josh Kronfled played for the AB?

Even if you are playing for your current federation you must respect the basic rules...

	28-10-2003 15:09									#308
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Just coming up to three years - and unless you have worn the white why should previous shirts come into it. He clearly only played for them becuase he had not realised he was really English at that time?

Who is this following gentleman btw Tamerlin? He keeps cropping up!

quote: France's assistant coach Jacques Brunel said: "Apart from Jason Robinson, England lack real speed on the burst. They are just like a diesel car or a tractor. Watching them lose their composure against Samoa was good news for all the other teams in the World Cup.”

Has he never watched Balshaw and Lewsey then – or even the loose forward Moody. tractors indeed!
He certainly lacks the class shown by Will Greenwood when the press boys asked him to respond to it.

quote: "I guess it's time for us to put on the tin hats again and battle on. We may not be the flashiest team in world rugby but we are consistent and unbeaten so far. If this bloke thinks we are tractors, then we are tractors. We decided before we got here to concentrate on the rugby. If other people choose to wage a World Cup in print and over the airways that's up to them."

	28-10-2003 15:19									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Havak France's assistant coach Jacques Brunel said: "Apart from Jason Robinson, England lack real speed on the burst. They are just like a diesel car or a tractor. Watching them lose their composure against Samoa was good news for all the other teams in the World Cup.”

Jacques Brunel seems to be part of the people that have brainfades when they are in front of a microphone... IMO Will Greenwood's answer is very classical and very propaganda like.

Nothing to worry about, united we stand against the heretics.

	28-10-2003 15:21									#310
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There is only one game broadcasted in France before Friday... Canada - Tonga.

	28-10-2003 15:30									#311
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Solidarity against the heretics is going to be important I feel - poor Uruguay just got done for 'truck and trailer' too. The taint of the SH is ever growing...

	28-10-2003 15:35									#312
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Uruguay 24 -d- Georgia 12

In front of 28,500 at the Sydney Football Stadium. Not far short of capacity. Uruguay just too strong and marginally more skilled. Strange that they don't seem to have any backs. Or if they do, they're rarely sighted. Some very ugly rucking from a couple of the Uruguayans that is bound to tickle the judiciary's fancy. There's also a rumor that the Uruguayans are changing their names to have lots of i's and apostrophes in them on the basis that England struggles against names they can't pronounce.

On a semi-related matter, two Argentinian props have been cited out of the Ireland game. One, I think, for having a crack at Mr Potato's eyes. Now there's a gag for the vegetable growers amongst you.

	28-10-2003 15:42									#313
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Uruguay 24 -d- Georgia 12 In front of 28,500 at the Sydney Football Stadium.

	28-10-2003 15:51									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Solidarity against the heretics is going to be important I feel - poor Uruguay just got done for 'truck and trailer' too. The taint of the SH is ever growing...

Oddly enough, it's in the Laws under Obstruction.

quote: It is a form of obstruction. The front player deliberately runs interference ahead of the ball-carrier, shielding the ball-carrier. This usually happens when a maul splinters. This is not a scrum but a penalty kick for obstruction.

I've scrolled through tonight's posts. I need to go and have a strong G&T before I attempt another run through. I couldn't take the run of Mr Abbott and M'sieur Costello sober.

	28-10-2003 15:54									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin There is only one game broadcasted in France before Friday... Canada - Tonga.

It's all you deserve! Anyway, there are bound to be a couple of grenouille-speakers amongst the Maple Leaves!

	28-10-2003 16:11									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Havak If you read what he is saying he is absolutely right – it was yourself who specifically brought hands in the ruck into the equation.

Only because it constituted 80% of the penalties against England.

quote: He’s talking about the Maul killing crap like ‘truck and trailer’ – and frankly only the SH could come up with such a lame name for anything.

Okay, let's call it what the Laws call it. Obstruction. So J**** wants to get away with obstruction. Fair enough.

quote: Strange isn’t it that Samoa and England have come out of this with mutual respect and it is the Aussie media that is apparently behaving disgracefully – it’s being widely reported here that the Aussie media has gone rabid – any truth in that?

The incident was reported and that's about all. In the papers I read anyway. And the reports are those I referred to as the consensus - that it was a technicality that might earn a reprimand. I think you need to put down The Sun and pick up The Independent or The Guardian.

quote: Who was it yesterday who said Clive didn’t praise Samoa post game? Quite wrong – I watched his post match interview again last night and he praised them to the hilt. It’s easy to see how the wrong impression can become so easily entrenched.

It was probably Tamerlin. Bloody trouble maker!

quote: I could have a double figure IQ for all you know.

You and your hyperbole again.

quote: I wonder if you would run through the Italian line up for me Finbar – I spotted at least two pasta Kiwi’s and a couple of Argentinians (including the fly half) when they played Wales. And I think Stoica the centre is Romanian. They might be the most ethnically diverse side in the cup?

And a Kiwi coach. At least they're back there now! And I'm not!

Oh, and, earlier this year, the coach apparently said something to his Union like: "Judge me on my performance at the World Cup".

M-hm.

	28-10-2003 16:14									#317
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The ball carrier not being bound to the maul is illegal. If he is bound there is no obstruction in a properly executed maul. If there was you SH types would have succeeded in your aim to make mauls completely illegal. Get your hands off our beautiful game!



England were not pinged after a maul splintered last Sunday but simply because ‘dire’ Kaplan decided the ball carrier was not bound – and he so clearly was! Spin it how you like – he got the call wrong. Doing so does rather seem to be his speciality.

Talking about mauls I watched the last 30 mins of the NPC game on Saturday night. Wonderfully exciting rugby at times but set pieces varied from totally full on to the farce of almost League like uncontested scrums (I’ve never seen scrums before where not only looseys but locks were not bound properly). Competition for the ball was notable chiefly for it’s absence.

Extremely nice touch with the farewell to Cullen though.

Enjoying your G&T?

	28-10-2003 16:21									#318
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quote: Originally posted by finbar It was probably Tamerlin. Bloody trouble maker!

Though I qualify as a trouble maker I was away from my keyboard this week-end.

quote: The ball carrier not being bound to the maul is illegal. If he is bound there is no obstruction in a properly executed maul. If there was you SH types would have succeeded in your aim to make mauls completely illegal. Get your hands off our beautiful game!

Ye', keep'ya handz off...


Spit!



Ding!

	28-10-2003 16:36									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Havak The ball carrier not being bound to the maul is illegal. If he is bound there is no obstruction in a properly executed maul.

Quite right. So when Neil Back isn't bound, he's being shepherded, which is illegal. Thanks for clarifying that.

The truck and trailer you referred to in tonight's match was entirely different. The maul had finished. The ball carrier ducked behind two of his teammates who tugged him over the line.

quote: Get your hands off our beautiful game!

Oops. Of course, Tamerlin, sorry.

quote: England were not pinged after a maul splintered last Sunday but simply because ‘dire’ Kaplan decided the ball carrier was not bound – and he so clearly was! Spin it how you like – he got the call wrong.

Oh well, it evens up for the time he missed Neil Back not bound at the back in the early stages of the maul that led to his try.

quote: Enjoying your G&T?

You and Tamerlin even soured my slice of lemon!

	28-10-2003 16:49									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Though I qualify as a trouble maker I was away from my keyboard this week-end.

Oh, sorry. I forgot. So how was sunny Carcasonne?

Spit!

Ding!

	28-10-2003 16:53									#321
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quote: Quite right. So when Neil Back isn't bound, he's being shepherded, which is illegal. Thanks for clarifying that.

Neil has been impeccably bound ever since the absolute arbiter of IRB law (aka Eddie Jones) insisted the law be so interpreted last week. One thing that he was not guilty of against Samoa was drifting away from the bind – he was sucked so far in we could hardly see him at times! Kaplan got it wrong – you don’t normally defend the chump so why so keen to now?

quote: The maul had finished. The ball carrier ducked behind two of his teammates who tugged him over the line.

Okay that does sound legitimate – however the term ‘truck and trailer’ needs to go. Sorry but it is awful phrasing. Can they change it to ‘Penalty. For being England, Celts or French (delete as applicable) and thinking mauls have a place in the modern game’?

Still I am sure you will examine the mauling between England and Uruguay very closely on Sunday for transgressions? I’d return the favour if I thought NZ or the ABs might use some.

quote: Oh well, it evens up for the time he missed Neil Back not bound at the back in the early stages of the maul that led to his try.

*Groan* No substance in this allegation at all I’m afraid. Why not follow it up by saying Balshaw was offside?

I actually watched that twenty odd times to satisfy myself in the expectation someone here would bait me with it. He was onside – he is pretty swift for a ‘tractor’.

Now I need that drink. Make it a double.

Strange isn’t it – SH teams tend to be poor at defending mauls. NH teams are good at using them. And there’s a huge stink in Australia right now encouraging refs to castrate mauls as a tactic. It’s no coincidence as far as I am concerned. No one runs competitions by media circus the way Australia can.

	28-10-2003 17:15									#322
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Cripes! I was just about to go to bed! Damn daylight savings that adjusts the time difference so you have more time to post!

quote: Neil has been impeccably bound ever since the absolute arbiter of IRB law (aka Eddie Jones) insisted the law be so interpreted last week.

John Eales, actually. But as I mentioned here at the time he raised the subject, you would obviously claim that Eddie had worded him up to raise the subject.

quote: One thing that he was not guilty of against Samoa was drifting away from the bind – he was sucked so far in we could hardly see him at times! Kaplan got it wrong – you don’t normally defend the chump so why so keen to now?

I quite honestly can't recall the incident. You have to realise I was doing a lot of giggling during that game.

quote: Okay that does sound legitimate – however the term ‘truck and trailer’ needs to go. Sorry but it is awful phrasing.

I don't know where it came from. I've only heard it in the last week. I suspect it came from the refs, who also coined "through the gate".

quote: Can they change it to ‘Penalty. For being England, Celts or French (delete as applicable) and thinking mauls have a place in the modern game’?

How about the "Neil Back Clause" of the Obstruction Law?

quote: Still I am sure you will examine the mauling between England and Uruguay very closely on Sunday for transgressions?

Uruguay stacked on several decent mauls tonight. Picked up a try from one, and one of the others brought about the implementation of the "Neil Back Clause". Big strong boys, but that's about all.

BTW, I hadn't realised that their Assistant Coach is the son of one of those poor buggers who perished in the Andes plane crash. His mother was in the plane too. And they were some of those who died on impact. I won't go on ...

quote: I actually watched that twenty odd times to satisfy myself in the expectation someone here would bait me with it.

I suspect you watched it twenty-odd times to satisfy yourself he wasn't in front of the kicker. It was very, very close.

quote: Strange isn’t it – SH teams tend to be poor at defending mauls. NH teams are good at using them.

There's no great history of them here, so there's no great history of defending against them. Anyway, there's virtually no defence against a top class one. Except trying to push it sideways.

quote: And there’s a huge stink in Australia right now encouraging refs to castrate mauls as a tactic. It’s no coincidence as far as I am concerned. No one runs competitions by media circus the way Australia can.

There's no great stink about it. John Eales drew attention to it. And the incidents he showed clearly demonstrated Mr Back wasn't bound. Ironically, he used a video screen the same way Clive did to create a huge stink about decoy runners immediately prior to a Test match against the All Blacks. The ultimate irony, of course, being that Clive blithely uses a tactic that he calls cheating while Australia doesn't use mauls to shepherd ball carriers.

	28-10-2003 17:47									#323
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So much for the Wallabies not knowing how to maul! I got into bed, turned on FoxSports, and they're replaying the '91 World Cup final. Timmy Horan breaks down the right touchline, kicks, finds touch. Willie O takes the lineout ball, they form a maul and take it over the line for a try to tighthead Ewen McKenzie!

Wallabies 9
England 0

Anyone care to bet on England in the game?



Now I'm going back to bed to enjoy the rest of the match.

	28-10-2003 18:12									#324
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quote: you would obviously claim that Eddie had worded him up to raise the subject.

Are you saying that you don’t believe he did?

quote: I quite honestly can't recall the incident. You have to realise I was doing a lot of giggling during that game.

Oh that’s a clear winner to you right there.

quote: I suspect it came from the refs, who also coined "through the gate".

At least that was semi logical?

quote: How about the "Neil Back Clause" of the Obstruction Law?

Too specific – make it the “Pommy clause”?

quote: Big strong boys, but that's about all.

Still should be enough to give you more laughs Sunday?

Didn’t know about their coach – and as I’m in a flippant mode today I’ll simply say poor buggers and move on too…

quote: I suspect you watched it twenty-odd times to satisfy yourself he wasn't in front of the kicker. It was very, very close.

An inch is as good as a mile – and Mr Howlett would do well to watch it to see how it can be done legally.

quote: Anyway, there's virtually no defence against a top class one. Except trying to push it sideways.

It’s an aspect of play that was so evidently missing in that NPC game I saw – and yet it is a fundamental of the game. The difference between hemispheres continues to astound me on this one – it should tell more at test level than it does – which leads to my suspicion of favourable refereeing at times.

But then you should be asleep now so I can tag Tamerlin in – he will no doubt still be awake when you next scan the thread.

quote: The ultimate irony, of course, being that Clive blithely uses a tactic that he calls cheating while Australia doesn't use mauls to shepherd ball carriers.

What a strong performance from you today.

The ultimate irony is surely though that Australia don’t use them simply because they can’t?

quote: Now I'm going back to bed to enjoy the rest of the match.

The last try ever scored from a maul by a Wallaby?

I'll have twenty on England please - to be the most gentlemanly defeated side in the game.

God that game plagues me – will no one rid me of those damn Australians of 91?

Mission for all other countries left in the mix – don’t let the buggers get into another final and steal it – it will haunt you for decades however many times you whip them between cups!

	28-10-2003 18:37									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Havak Strange isn’t it – SH teams tend to be poor at defending mauls. NH teams are good at using them. And there’s a huge stink in Australia right now encouraging refs to castrate mauls as a tactic. It’s no coincidence as far as I am concerned. No one runs competitions by media circus the way Australia can.

Replace "Australia" with "the Southern Hemisphere" (or "the heretics" for the sake of variety) and this is what I am hammering since several months.

	28-10-2003 18:45									#326
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Now I'm going back to bed to enjoy the rest of the match.

The urge to tease Havak is so strong that Finbar even goes out of his bed when he is looking a Rugby game just to post a few acrid sentences.

	28-10-2003 18:51									#327
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You can take the man out of Australia - but you can't take Australia out of the man.

	28-10-2003 18:56									#328
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quote: Originally posted by finbar Anyway, there's virtually no defence against a top class one. Except trying to push it sideways.

The SH nations demonstrate every game that the best defence is to crumble the said maul as the referees have great troubles to remember there is a law to punish such a behavior.

quote: Originally posted by Havak ...which leads to my suspicion of favourable refereeing at times.

This is also what I am saying since a long time though in a different way, changing the interpretation of the law is like bending the law of the game to suit your needs and leads to a favourable refereeing.

quote: But then you should be asleep now so I can tag Tamerlin in – he will no doubt still be awake when you next scan the thread.

I am ready!

	28-10-2003 19:43									#329
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quote: The SH nations demonstrate every game that the best defence is to crumble the said maul as the referees have great troubles to remember there is a law to punish such a behaviour.

I regret England directly benefited from this inherent blindness when Bracken collapsed a Bok maul near the line. I can hardly jump on my high horse until the SH posters forget all about that (so two weeks or so then).

quote: This is also what I am saying since a long time though in a different way, changing the interpretation of the law is like bending the law of the game to suit your needs and leads to a favourable refereeing.

Ah yes this one is a can of worms too. There actually is no interpretation as such as the laws are the laws – but several of them enshrine the officials ‘discretion’ thus making interpretation a cover all excuse.

There’s little doubt referees ‘interpretation’ is influenced by the type of club rugby they officiate – and that this is the source of the differences we perceive at international level. If the NPC game I saw Satruday was tyopical it explains why Kiwi refs are appalling at policing mauls.

The problem is I think international duty homogenises these guys – with the net result we send decent refs away to such duty and get tossers back (Chris white has never been the same since tri-nations duty) – and no doubt the SH says the same.

quote: I am ready!

Between us I am sure we can get him to the stage where he needs a G&T first thing in the morning too.

	28-10-2003 19:49									#330
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Is the G&T a Gin-Tonic (as we call it here)?

I used to drink that when I was young...