19-01-2004 21:17									#181
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	19-01-2004 21:18									#182
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	19-01-2004 21:26									#183
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	19-01-2004 21:27									#184
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	19-01-2004 21:32									#185
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	19-01-2004 21:34									#186
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	19-01-2004 21:37									#187
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	19-01-2004 21:38									#188
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	19-01-2004 21:40									#189
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	19-01-2004 21:41									#190
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	19-01-2004 21:49									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac My opinion is "Hell no!", but I don't want to tell them that yet.

As long as we don't lie, we will be ok. If we wait too long without saying we're discussing, they will trade with PEACE or we'll certainly lose much goodwill. If we lie, we lose so much goodwill IMHO we'll be at war.

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	19-01-2004 21:53									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue So can we trade it, with no restrictions, in 2155? Maybe 2156?

AFAIK and IMHO we can offer it to them our MY 2155, with as only restriction that they can't trade it to other factions, which is a standard clause in about all interhuman trades. If they ask why we can't trade before 2155, I guess we could tell its due to a beeline that will be interfered if we get a tech from them before MY 2156. IMO though we can't tell them before PEACE posts their MY 2154 that we plan to build the PEG ourselves and thus that they won't get it. Otherwise they will trade with PEACE.
Also, better tell HongHu per PM. That way she can't ask you in a chat whether that deal includes them building the PEG, and we can win a few days.

	19-01-2004 22:00									#193
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DBTS let them talk it thru.

	19-01-2004 22:10									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac AFAIK and IMHO we can offer it to them our MY 2155, with as only restriction that they can't trade it to other factions, which is a standard clause in about all interhuman trades. If they ask why we can't trade before 2155, I guess we could tell its due to a beeline that will be interfered if we get a tech from them before MY 2156. IMO though we can't tell them before PEACE posts their MY 2154 that we plan to build the PEG ourselves and thus that they won't get it. Otherwise they will trade with PEACE.

I'd go for all that.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Also, better tell HongHu per PM. That way she can't ask you in a chat whether that deal includes them building the PEG, and we can win a few days.

Do you realise how annoyed they're going to be of they think the trade is for the PEG and it isn't. The trade they offered specifically included the PEG. We can't say we agree to it later when we don't. We could say we agree to a trade with no restrictions on the PEG. Or we could say without. We can't agree to what's on the table, since that specifically includes us signing a non-build for the PEG.

	19-01-2004 22:22									#195
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Then just tell them we can certainly trade AdapEcon with them from MY 2155 onwards, but that we're still discussing whether or not to include the PEG in the package, as some cyborgs don't really like the EcoEng-DocLoy offer? We can then simply tell them later, after MY 2154, that we don't agree to a PEG deal (but we do agree to a simple AdapEcon deal) because we find the compensation insufficient. That way we have never led them to believe they will certainly get the PEG. Anything wrong with that?

	19-01-2004 22:26									#196
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Sounds great Will write and send later.

	19-01-2004 22:47									#197
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hmz...grumble....so is the poll needed now...because i like this one too...

	20-01-2004 00:04									#198
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DBTS: We're going to tell the Hive we're still discussing. The poll is for the final decision.

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	20-01-2004 14:37									#199
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My thoughts (to throw at least a 4th Cyborg's opinion in) are that under no circumstances should we lead the Hive into believing they will get the PEG. By all means tell them we are still deciding on whether to give them AdapEcon before building the PEG (so they have a chance to try so themselves), but no to selling the the PEG with AdapEcon. Either we trade it with them and say 'let the fastest faction win' or we trade it after we have assured ourselves we have it - giving them a tech and agreeing not to build the PEG ourselves for a lousy two techs we will get anyway is not a deal I like.

Perhaps we can come to them honestly - we value the PEG highly and are hoping to build it ourselves, so we are reluctant to trade it to them when they can still build it first without feeling that we are getting adequate compensation for losing it. Perhaps we can enter negotiations for a future tech/SP, where we agree not to build that SP if we get the tech from them. If we go this route we should certainly tell them that we value their friendship a lot, else we wouldn't be telling them all this. We hope to maintain good relations, but hope also that we can reach trades that are mutual, where both factions feel satisfied. Pending the results of the poll we currently have, CyCon may not be satisfied trading AdapEcon if it means the Hive will thus get the PEG themselves.

	20-01-2004 15:50									#200
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I agree with most of your post, bar this:

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt giving them a tech and agreeing not to build the PEG ourselves for a lousy two techs we will get anyway is not a deal I like.

You realise, since we will have to get those two techs either way, it simply puts us two techs ahead. Sure, we will get them soon, but when we spend the resources/diplomacy to get them at a later date, we could do the same for two different and further techs. It simply puts us two techs ahead, since we would have to spend resources later to research/trade for them.

	21-01-2004 01:01									#201
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I agree with the "dont outright lie to the Hive" opinion expressed by many here, yet still feel we must do everything in are power to get the PEG for ourselves if we expect to remain viable in the long term.

I think we should tell the Hive that we consider the PEG our "spoils of war" from PEACE and that we feel it is ours by right to aquire that Project OR trade it away if we chosse. For another faction to swoop in and trade with the Pirates (exploiting the success of the war that WE have spend so much on) inorder to get a tec trade that the Pirates would NEVER have otherwise agreed to then we would obviously see that as a explotation of our war to take something we consider to be ours and a hostile act which would severly damage relations.

	21-01-2004 03:41									#202
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Has a message been sent to the Hive yet? If not, I could send HongHu a quick note asking her when she would at the earliest want to have AdapEcon?

	21-01-2004 04:41									#203
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I follow MrWhereItsAt about ensuring PEG is ours. I feel that in the long run we WILL need it to keep our cash flow and research ahead of the other factions.
And an open explanation to the Hive of our wishes here seems best to me too. No need to alienate them.

	21-01-2004 15:11									#204
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Maniac: Not yet, I haven't spoken to HongHu. I will send a short message now.

	21-01-2004 16:39									#205
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Have sent this to HongHu:

quote: Greetings Ambassador HongHu, You asked on VoyForum a few days ago for our opinion on Enigma’s Doc Loyalty and Eco Eng for Adapt Econ with the PEG. We have had a long discussion, and no clear consensus has emerged, so I posted a poll on it. I am sorry for the delay in this reply, the CyCon forum has been very busy with war discussion that most people have not voiced an opinion on diplomacy recently. We also have a couple of new members (GeoModder (Maniac’s brother) and obstructor). I will try to give you a reply soon, but I’m a little busy at the moment in RL too I love the grapefruit stories on OTF too - Prime Fucntion Drogue Beta-8

	22-01-2004 00:59									#206
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Should we also say we can give it from MY 2155 on?

	22-01-2004 01:49									#207
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Nah, they'll think something's up, or they'll just trade with PEACE anyway. I'll try and find a way. In the meantime, we have some time.

	24-01-2004 21:11									#208
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Though their silence might indicate they have given up on trading with us. Can I send Enigma_Nova a message asking if the Hive is still interested in AdapEcon, as I haven't heard of them for a while?

Btw, should we not also tell them about our pact with the PUT, and give some reasons for it etc? It would be better if we told them about it, instead of they having to ask us.

	25-01-2004 02:57									#209
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On the first, sure. The second is explained by 3D

	26-01-2004 03:45									#210
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Good news. Enigma_Nova has proposed a deal in the VoyForum: AdapEcon for EcoEng, and we get to keep the PEG.

I would be in favour of such a deal. How about you?