19-10-2003 02:28									#31
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Thats exactly what im talking about Ned, the complication of the trinity.

As an aside, I will say I agree with you. The God i believe in, is the God that my wife a Hindu worships, and that my muslim friends call Allah ..

As for which God is biggest, are they not both infinite ? a bit difficult to measure that one up really

	19-10-2003 02:28									#32
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We overmix two things: the theological discussion, and the historical discussion about the evolution of dieties.

	19-10-2003 02:32									#33
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Furthermore, they teach radically different things. The God of the Bible teaches salvation through grace. Allah teaches salvation through works. If they are the same deity then why do they teach radically different ways to salvation?

I suggest you reread your bible. It's not very consistent on how man is saved.

Can't remember the verses....

	19-10-2003 02:32									#34
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Even if you can trace them back to polytheistic origins in both Islam and Judaism, the current "version" of their deities, so to speak, is still the "one true god", the only god that has ever existed (at least for firm believers of those religions).

Since Muslims believe that they are following the "true" and most recent revelation, as opposed to Jews and Christians (just as Christians claim something similar over the Jews) who have "imperfect" ones, in essence there's just been a lot of co-opting and "retconning" going on....not really 3 different "Gods"...since none of them contemplates that.

Rather, there's 3 very different interpretations and traditions with a few similar points, who have come to believe in 1 single deity and accept a certain amount of shared history/historical relationship with it, common to all 3 (again, mostly retroactively co-opted, but viewed as "true").

	19-10-2003 02:39									#35
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Actually, if im correct, was not the first "One true God", the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten, who set himself up as the first monothiestic God, and was quickly overthrown.

His famous son, Tutankhamun, was actually originally named Tutanakhnaten, but the priests renamed him after his fathers death.

Aparently, there have been writings found about Akhnaten which mirror the psalms of david almost word for word .. interesting.

	19-10-2003 02:44									#36
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This is very interesting. I wonder if it is true, and if so, what is the underlying story.

	19-10-2003 02:53									#37
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This link doesn't have the psalm stuff in it, but does give some background

http://www.heptune.com/Akhnaten.html



ahh Ive found one with reference to Psalm 104.

http://www.angelfire.com/ny/akhenaten/bio.html (part way down).

	19-10-2003 02:53									#38
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The short monotheistic period in ancient Egypt co-incides with the time of Moses and the Exodus. Some researchers believes the switch to monotheism was triggered by a huge volcano eruption in Greece, which ash cloud and tsunami waves caused all the Egyptian catastrophies we can read about in the bible.

	19-10-2003 02:56									#39
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quote: WTF are you guys arguing about? The God we are all talking about is the God who created the heavens and the earth. How can this be two different Gods?

You did notice the '' right?

	19-10-2003 02:58									#40
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I suggest you reread your bible. It's not very consistent on how man is saved. Can't remember the verses....

Well, I have studied the Bible for years. So, I think I know the Bible pretty well.

Both the OT and NT teaches salvation by grace. In the OT, God asked for sacrifices and offerings as symbols of repentance, but salvation came from God not human works. Psalms is very clear that salvation is a gift from God. And in the NT, the Apostle Paul vehemently taught salvation by grace alone. So, I think that the Bible is rather consistant that salvation comes from God not human works.

	19-10-2003 03:01									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The short monotheistic period in ancient Egypt co-incides with the time of Moses and the Exodus. Some researchers believes the switch to monotheism was triggered by a huge volcano eruption in Greece, which ash cloud and tsunami waves caused all the Egyptian catastrophies we can read about in the bible.

That theory explains a lot of stuff, like that pillar of smoke and fire. That's why everyone is so in love with it.

	19-10-2003 03:04									#42
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quote: So, I think that the Bible is rather consistant that salvation comes from God not human works.

The Catholic Church sure disagrees.

	19-10-2003 03:06									#43
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Im a great believer that akhenaten started the global trend to Monothiesm, and that it started as a political venture, which he ended up feeling comftable with shades of Stargate here .. setting yourself up as a God, so maintain power and influence.

But this had a huge impact on the early characters in the bible (moses, joseph), and spawned the God of the jews.

	19-10-2003 03:32									#44
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Well, I have studied the Bible for years. So, I think I know the Bible pretty well. Both the OT and NT teaches salvation by grace. In the OT, God asked for sacrifices and offerings as symbols of repentance, but salvation came from God not human works. Psalms is very clear that salvation is a gift from God. And in the NT, the Apostle Paul vehemently taught salvation by grace alone. So, I think that the Bible is rather consistant that salvation comes from God not human works.

Yes, well the world's fastest growing religion may have some issue with your justification by grace. 1517 and all that

The majority of muslims would follow a semi-Lutherian line that faith saves, but that great works are important also. Besides, Mohammed and the Koran seek to "tack" themselves onto the great monotheist tradition. We are all the sons of Ibrahim, the Jews were (allegedly) shown the light by the 2nd greatest prophet, Jesus miraculously born of a virgin. However the Christians ran with the idea too far, and now deny the unity of God. Hence Mohammed.

Edit: SP, Imran beat me to the Catholic thing.

	19-10-2003 03:38									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie The short monotheistic period in ancient Egypt co-incides with the time of Moses and the Exodus. Some researchers believes the switch to monotheism was triggered by a huge volcano eruption in Greece, which ash cloud and tsunami waves caused all the Egyptian catastrophies we can read about in the bible.

This is about the biggest BS I read for a long time in the OT (aside from everything Ned has posted).

	19-10-2003 03:41									#47
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It's possible, but unlikely. Like the story that Atlantis was lost during this time, or that the Greek refugees from the floods are the Phoenacians. Or that, until recently the basin of the Black Sea harbored civilization.

It's much more likely that the stories of Moses and so-on are much older folk-tales, or a verbal tradition like the Homeric epics.

	19-10-2003 03:46									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij This is about the biggest BS I read for a long time in the OT (aside from everything Ned has posted).

Why don't you back up your point with some arguments?

I read a whole book about this theory. Even if all books are not true, I have never seen anyone trying to prove that the book was wrong. A lot of it makes sense, even for someone who believes in the bible.

	19-10-2003 03:49									#49
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Well, just to be sure, I don't call Allah a peanut, I think Allah is awesome, but if I really really had to, I'd put my money on God when the bell rings... but if it turns out to go the other way, I'm willing to congratulate Allah.








... but I'll be wanting my money back, since everyone knows it would be a fixed fight. God can't lose!!

	19-10-2003 04:00									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Why don't you back up your point with some arguments? I read a whole book about this theory. Even if all books are not true, I have never seen anyone trying to prove that the book was wrong. A lot of it makes sense, even for someone who believes in the bible.

Okay, but let's start a new thread then, because it is of topic in regard of this thread. I'm all for debunking odd ideas about ancient Egypt. So please start a new thread while I go browsing through my bookshelves...

	19-10-2003 04:46									#51
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The LA Times ran an article on this today but it had a much different quote from Boykin. According to the Times Boykin claimed he was refering to OBL as worshipping the false idols of power and hatred instead of god.

	19-10-2003 05:08									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Zero god > allah Beatles > jesus jesus = god Beatles > allah

	19-10-2003 05:13									#53
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god > allah
Beatles > jesus
jesus = god
Beatles > allah
Pekka can beat Beatles members butts single handedly => Pekka is more powerful => Since (Beatles > allah) && (Pekka > Beatles) => Pekka > any of you mofos.

You should start sending me gifts pretty soon.

	19-10-2003 05:16									#54
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And if God is more powerful than Allah -> x^2, x

And because Beatles is more powerful than these -> x^3

And because I'm the greatest according to logics -> x^4

And when we start figuring out functions, I'M THE LAST ONE LEFT WITH MY X, SO THERE!

In the brutal hands of sqr.root, I'll be the last one standing. BRING IT ON GOD, ALLAH AND BEATLES! Bring.. it.. on!!!

	19-10-2003 05:49									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Yes, Allah means "god" in Arabic but it is not referring to the same deity as the God of the Bible. That's ok, because the "God" of the Bible is not referring to the same deity as Yahweh of the Torah .

Then why would any Arab Christian tell you that he worships "Allah?"

	19-10-2003 06:41									#56
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El - Elohim - Allah
consenental drift and different Semetic languages tend to yeild slightly different prononciations of the same concept.

Contrary to The Diplomat's assertion, Allah is simply the Arabic word for the same God that the Jews and then the Christians worshiped.

While many Arab tribes did worship a moon god, including the city of Mecca, where Muhamad originated, he developed his religion based on the strories he learned from Christian and Jewish traders and tavellers, who caravaned up and down the west coast of the Arabian peninsula. The Christian Eastern Roman Empire was the dominant power in the region, and Yemen, to the South, was largely divided between Christians and Jews.

On top of this, it says in the Koran that Christians and Jews are children of the book, they worship the same god, only that they have it wrong.

	19-10-2003 08:21									#57
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Well, I have studied the Bible for years. So, I think I know the Bible pretty well.

Not like you know it better than John Calvin.

	19-10-2003 09:05									#58
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Yahweh = God = Allah

	19-10-2003 09:50									#59
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My God is bigger than everyone's else's god/goddess.

	19-10-2003 10:12									#60
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Calvinists and Catholics don't worship the same God.