20-10-2003 20:48									#91
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You Iconophile, schizmatic fool. You should never show images of God.

	20-10-2003 20:55									#92
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MWA HA HA HA!!!

	20-10-2003 21:27									#93
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I looked at that picture and thought what is that fighter flying there, trying to bomb God? Then I realized it was a sword. Stupid me.

	20-10-2003 21:51									#94
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Actually, that is Fez's helicopter.

	20-10-2003 23:15									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I looked at that picture and thought what is that fighter flying there, trying to bomb God? Then I realized it was a sword. Stupid me.

I thought it was a missile about to blow up god before i too realized what it was

	20-10-2003 23:19									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What's interesting about this to me is that nobody seems to question whether Boykin's rather apocalyptic views of the current middle east conflict as God battling the forces of Satan has any bearing on his fitness to hold the senior intel position in the Pentagon. God's battle against Satan has one direction and one conclusion, as described in Revelations. Will Boykin attempt to filter and fit conflicting data into this viewpoint? As a Corps commander or CINCARCENT, I wouldn't give a **** if he thinks it's God's will, or what have you. As a chief intel weenie, I'd prefer a guy who doesn't have any particular ideological bent regarding his enemy, his allies, or the nature of the raw info or analysis that passes through his subordinates hands.

Im less concerned about his view of the islamic religion - He's since said that he thought the "idol" the somali warlord worshipped was money and power, not Allah. Im more concerned that he doesnt seem to have thought through how what he said is likely to play in the Islamic world - its difficult to beleive that someone tone deaf to that could be effective in a politically sensitive position.

	20-10-2003 23:21									#97
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I'm concerned that he thinks Bush was appointed by God.

	20-10-2003 23:23									#98
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Well, I have studied the Bible for years. So, I think I know the Bible pretty well. Both the OT and NT teaches salvation by grace. In the OT, God asked for sacrifices and offerings as symbols of repentance, but salvation came from God not human works. Psalms is very clear that salvation is a gift from God. And in the NT, the Apostle Paul vehemently taught salvation by grace alone. So, I think that the Bible is rather consistant that salvation comes from God not human works.

Paul isnt accepted by Jews. As for psalms, Im sure that the quote, like most christian proof texts from the Hebrew scriptures, is one that could easily be interpreted differently. (not saying you christians shouldnt take it that way - christianity is YOUR religion after all - just dont assume all religions based on the Hebrew scriptures have to see things that way)

	20-10-2003 23:25									#99
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm concerned that he thinks Bush was appointed by God.

Yeah the man doesnt seem to understand the electoral college, if he thinks that not having the most popular votes means you were appointed by G-d. Someone get this man a civics text book.

	20-10-2003 23:26									#100
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy Actually, if im correct, was not the first "One true God", the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten, who set himself up as the first monothiestic God, and was quickly overthrown. His famous son, Tutankhamun, was actually originally named Tutanakhnaten, but the priests renamed him after his fathers death. Aparently, there have been writings found about Akhnaten which mirror the psalms of david almost word for word .. interesting.

actually he worshipped Aten as the first monotheistic G-d, not himself.

	20-10-2003 23:28									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Evil Knevil It's possible, but unlikely. Like the story that Atlantis was lost during this time, or that the Greek refugees from the floods are the Phoenacians.

Philistines. Its pretty clear the Phoenicians were Semites (probably very close to the Canaanites and Hebrews).

	20-10-2003 23:33									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I looked at that picture and thought what is that fighter flying there, trying to bomb God? Then I realized it was a sword. Stupid me.

"It's Osama! He's about to crash into god!"

	20-10-2003 23:38									#103
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat There are theological differences, but all Christian denominations share the same core beliefs. So, we are still the same religion. We worship the same God. Whereas the differences between Christianity and Islam are much more radical. Christianity and Islam are two completely different religions. These fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam make it impossible that both are worshiping the same God. Early Christianity grew out of Judaism. Early Christianity was essentially a different kind of Judaism. We both acknowledge the same God of the OT. Muslims do not! Islam and Judaism or Christianity do not share these common theological or historical connections. Islam grew from a completely different theological background with different prophets, and different core beliefs. It is a different religion, and therefore it has a different God.

early christianity may have grown out of judaism, but it is clearly a different religion from Judaism. so if C and J can worship the same G-d, why not Islam? I dont base my sense that Christians worship the G-d of Judaism from their acceptance of the "Old testament" - even their use of the that term to describe the Bible show how they misunderstand it . And their concept of G-D - as a trinity has nothing to do with Judaisms view of the G-d of the Hebrew scriptures. However we do worship "He who created the heaven and the earth" and no other. Christians say the same thing (setting Christian trinitarianism apart from pagan Polytheism) And Islam says the same thing (and doesnt have this whole trinity thing) So I would say all 3 worship the same G-d - just 2 of them do it the wrong way is all . And if any 2 belong together, as regards G-d concept, its Judaism and Islam, NOT Judaism and Christainity. So IF Christianity claims to worship the same G-d as Judaism, (which claim I accept) then it follows that they worship the same G-d as Islam as well.

	21-10-2003 00:05									#104
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why are you spelling God G-d?

	21-10-2003 00:08									#105
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lord of the mark is a bastard, that's why!

	21-10-2003 00:18									#106
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quote: Its pretty clear the Phoenicians were Semites (probably very close to the Canaanites and Hebrews).

Since Canaanites is a generic term for a number of tribes living here, like the Amonites, and the Moabites, I think it's fair to call (us) all canaanites. The pottery is the same. the language is very similar. VERY similar, the alphabete is the same...

	21-10-2003 00:26									#107
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What's interesting about this to me is that nobody seems to question whether Boykin's rather apocalyptic views of the current middle east conflict as God battling the forces of Satan has any bearing on his fitness to hold the senior intel position in the Pentagon.

There have been many great generals in history who thought of things from a very religious point of view. Patton routinely declared that the allies' battle against the axis was one of good against evil but no one questioned his abilities as a general. Nearly all of the major Civil war and Revolutionary generals (with the exception of U.S. Grant who was a noted womanizer and alcoholic; though still a good general) were highly religious men and many were excellent generals as well.

	21-10-2003 00:31									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin There have been many great generals in history who thought of things from a very religious point of view. Patton routinely declared that the allies' battle against the axis was one of good against evil but no one questioned his abilities as a general. Nearly all of the major Civil war and Revolutionary generals (with the exception of U.S. Grant who was a noted womanizer and alcoholic; though still a good general) were highly religious men and many were excellent generals as well.

Yup, but when some US generals (like Fremont) started doing anti-slavery things, at a time when Lincoln was desperated trying to keep Kentucky in the union, Lincoln fired them. I think thats the right metaphor here.

	21-10-2003 00:33									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: Its pretty clear the Phoenicians were Semites (probably very close to the Canaanites and Hebrews). Since Canaanites is a generic term for a number of tribes living here, like the Amonites, and the Moabites, I think it's fair to call (us) all canaanites. The pottery is the same. the language is very similar. VERY similar, the alphabete is the same...

Yeah well, the RELIGION (and possibly related aspects of the social system) was a tad different though And while that may not be important to YOU, it apparently WAS very important at the time. (BTW, there was a secularist movement in Israel just before independence that called itself the Canaanites, ISTR)

	21-10-2003 00:36									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman why are you spelling God G-d?

\

Its customary among observant Jews to avoid using the name of G-d except when praying. To follow this custom even in English is widespread among Orthodox and some Conservative Jews. I follow it somewhat inconsistently, but especially in conversations about Judaism.

	21-10-2003 00:42									#111
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quote: This is the fatal flaw in your own religion too.

Where does Christianity teach that Christ is only a prophet? They teach him to be the Son of God.

That's why he ought to be rated ahead of Moses and Muhammed, neither of whom is divine even in their own religions.

	21-10-2003 00:50									#112
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quote: And if any 2 belong together, as regards G-d concept, its Judaism and Islam,

Good luck getting the Muslims' agreement.

Might just be simpler to say,

The God of Abraham is the God of Isaac and of Ishmael, therefore the God of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same.

quote: even their use of the that term to describe the Bible show how they misunderstand it

Well, if you accepted the NT as part of your canon, then the terminology would make much more sense.

	21-10-2003 01:00									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Good luck getting the Muslims' agreement.

Maybe I can get Imran's agreement - that would be a start


Actually I think the parallels between Judaism and Islam are visible even to some fairly radical muslims - Sayd Qutb, ISTR, distinguished Islam from Christianity by Pauls by Christianitys distinction between the secular and religious, which he acknowledged was foreign to both Judaism and Islam. Of course he first distinguished Judaism from Islam by claiming Judaism was cold legalism, while Islam was informed by passionate love of G-d. How ironic that he was following an old CHRISTIAN misunderstanding of Judaism. Also unfortunately he identified the Christian seperation of the worldly and the spiritual with the enlightenment notion of separation of religion and state, and used this to claim that the latter was unIslamic. Fortunately only a handful of Jews oppose the enlightenment to the degree a Sayed Qutb does (even most of those who like the notion that the Israeli State subsidizes Orthodox Judaism would shrink from a full theocracy) I suppose thats the benefit of 2000 years as a persecuted minority

	21-10-2003 01:18									#114
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quote: that he was following an old CHRISTIAN misunderstanding of Judaism.

Not surprisingly, many things have been borrowed from Christianity by Islam.

I think the best way of looking at things is the passage with Abraham, he believed and God credited this to him as righteousness. As the father of the Jewish nation, how could this be considered legalism?

	21-10-2003 01:24									#115
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IMHO, the biggest thing that Islam and Judaism have in common vis a vis Christianity, is the total rejection of any idea of divinity of Jesus, Trinity or any such ideas.

	21-10-2003 01:44									#116
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Completely true! One of Mohammed's(pbh) goals was to bring the Christians back to the true way (i.e the Judaic conception) of God as one indivisable whole.

	21-10-2003 03:01									#117
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You a Muslim, Evil ?

	21-10-2003 03:21									#118
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lol @ Spiffor

	21-10-2003 03:26									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's why he ought to be rated ahead of Moses and Muhammed, neither of whom is divine even in their own religions.

No, the fatal flaw is you all believe what someone else told you what God said to them. Moslems believe Muhammed when he said an angel spoke with him. Jews beliee Moses when he said he heard a burning bush talk. Christians believe Saul/Paul when he says he had a vision, etc. You all believe the words of men.

	21-10-2003 03:31									#120
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quote: As the father of the Jewish nation, how could this be considered legalism?

Well, later on Jews were considered too legalistic by Christians. Certain Christian writers considered that the Christian believed in the Gospel and the Jews believed in the law. Hell, even Luther believed in that, and you can see his disdain for the law.

The reason for this is the amazing Judaic religious law. You had the Torah, and then commentaries on it by rabbis, and then commentaries on those commentaries, etc. You had a great, wonderful dialog in Judaism to hash out things (since there wasn't really one main Rabbi).