19-10-2003 10:57									#61
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Calvinists and Catholics don't worship the same God.

Well, certain Calvinists do believe God predestined certain men to be damned from the beginning of time......

	19-10-2003 11:22									#62
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quote: Well, certain Calvinists do believe God predestined certain men to be damned from the beginning of time......

I think it is the opposite. Certain Calvinisits believe that God predestined certain men to be SAVED from the beginning of time. The difference is subtle, but important .

	19-10-2003 12:14									#63
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quote: That's ok, because the "God" of the Bible is not referring to the same deity as Yahweh of the Torah .

You enjoying yourself, Imran?

Christians do not claim that they worship a different God, they just believe that Christ is the promised Messiah, while the Jews believe that the messiah is yet to come.

One could even say the same thing about Allah, in that the difference between Christians and Muslims is that the Muslims see Muhammed as the latest prophet of God, and that Jesus is just another prophet, like Moses.

All three of the peoples of the book trace origins to Abraham. In that the God of Abraham would be both the God of Isaac and of Ishmael.

quote: I think it is the opposite. Certain Calvinisits believe that God predestined certain men to be SAVED from the beginning of time. The difference is subtle, but important.

Good. I'm impressed. Calvinists are very careful to say that God has certain peoples' names written in the book of life. It can be a very comforting thought to those who are already Christians to be among the elect, that this is where they were meant to be, for all time.

Now this does noy preclude any people from being saved since how do we know whether one person is or is not in the book of life?

Shi, I suggest you brush up on Calvinism. Just as Catholics do not believe in works being the route to salvation, neither do Calvinists consign people to hell.

	19-10-2003 12:26									#64
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quote: One could even say the same thing about Allah

But Drake doesn't. So, if he's gonna be consistant he has to say that Christians are just believing in a different God .

quote: It can be a very comforting thought to those who are already Christians to be among the elect

It can, but it also doesn't have to be. Just because you are a Christian doesn't mean you are among the 'elect', at least to original Calvinism. After all, how do you know if you have 'enough' faith (since no one has 100% faith... most people will not simply shrug off a loved one's death as being part of God's Plan).

quote: neither do Calvinists consign people to hell

Well, they actually do. Calvinists consign people to heaven and hell. If people are predestined by God to be saved or damned (much fewer are saved, and not all Christians are) then you MUST consign people to Hell. Every major Christian sect really consigns people to the Satanic underworld.

	19-10-2003 12:27									#65
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quote: Since Muslims believe that they are following the "true" and most recent revelation, as opposed to Jews and Christians (just as Christians claim something similar over the Jews) who have "imperfect" ones, in essence there's just been a lot of co-opting and "retconning" going on....not really 3 different "Gods"...since none of them contemplates that.

JDG:

Muslims, unlike the Christians have far less justification for their revelation supplanting the old, than the Christians did for the Jews. No Muslim claims that Muhammed is Allah, yet Christians believe that Christ is the Son of God. Muslims believe that the bible corrupted the teachings of God, and is therefore unreliable, whereas the Christians acknowledge their debt to the Jews insisting the Jesus fufills the prophecies in the Old Testament.

Why should one believe Muhammed over Moses and all the other prophets?




Rather, there's 3 very different interpretations and traditions with a few similar points, who have come to believe in 1 single deity and accept a certain amount of shared history/historical relationship with it, common to all 3 (again, mostly retroactively co-opted, but viewed as "true").

	19-10-2003 12:32									#66
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	19-10-2003 12:33									#67
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	19-10-2003 12:37									#68
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quote: If people are predestined by God to be saved or damned (much fewer are saved, and not all Christians are) then you MUST consign people to Hell. Every major Christian sect really consigns people to the Satanic underworld.

Show me where the Calvinists say believers can be condemned to hell.

Show me where a Calvinist rejects someone from entering the Church on the grounds that they are not part of the elect?

Quite simply, we do not know for sure who is part and who is not, until they decide to join. Once someone is inside, then we believe that they are in the book of life.

	19-10-2003 12:58									#69
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quote: Show me where the Calvinists say believers can be condemned to hell.

From all the classes I've taken on the Reformation, the original Calvinists did not believe that all Christians will be among the elect. Only a few of them will. That is one of the reasons to try to be successful in your secualar work (as opposed to say Catholic monestacism where work doesn't matter), to attempt to gain an insight into whether or not you were one of the elect, as predetermined by God. Just because you join the church doesn't make you elect.

One of the central tenants of original Calvinism is that you can NEVER know if you are one of the elect. Only God knows.

	19-10-2003 13:02									#70
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i dont believe in god... but if i did his c0ck would be this big *gestures with hands*

	19-10-2003 13:06									#71
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IIRC, Calvinists reject the notion of freewill.

	19-10-2003 13:10									#72
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quote: IIRC, Calvinists reject the notion of freewill.

Yes, predetermination does so .

	19-10-2003 13:10									#73
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Duh.

	19-10-2003 13:14									#74
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Oh, and Ben:

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

I'd like to point to the part that says 'Liberal Reforms'.

Another revision of Calvinism is called Amyrauldianism, "hypothetical universalism", or "four-point Calvinism", which asserts that Christ's death atones for the sins of all men, but only those who repent and believe are elect and receive forgiveness. This doctrine was most thoroughly systematized by the French Reformed theologian at the University of Saumur, Moses Amyraut, for whom it is named. It was popularized in England by the Reformed pastor Richard Baxter, and gained strong adherence in the Presbyterian church in American colonies, during the 17th and 18th centuries. In the United States, Amyrauldianism is the most common form of Calvinism current among evangelical churches. Baxter himself differentiated his proposals from those of Amyrauldianism, on several rather subtle points. Baxter's influential form of hypothetical universalism is often called neonomianism, and is generally considered a milder proposal of reform than Amyraut's version.

Basically the idea that all believers are among the elect is a Liberal Reform of Calvinism. The original idea is that only the elect are saved and not all believers are part of the elect.

	19-10-2003 13:27									#75
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat NO! They are not the same deity at all. Allah was originally the Moon God of various Arab tribes back when they were polytheist. It has nothing to do with Yawheh who revealed himself to the Israelites centuries prior. Furthermore, they teach radically different things. The God of the Bible teaches salvation through grace. Allah teaches salvation through works. If they are the same deity then why do they teach radically different ways to salvation? Also, if they are the same deity, then why did He tell the Jews that Jesus was his only Son and then tell the Arabs that Jesus wasn't His Son? Yes, Allah means "god" in Arabic but it is not referring to the same deity as the God of the Bible.

Then again, there are conflicts within Christian denominations as to the significance of works and grace in salvation, and Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, either - so do Jews and different Christian denominations worship different gods? Or is it just "my God is the true God, and you are a heretic?"

	19-10-2003 13:45									#76
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What's interesting about this to me is that nobody seems to question whether Boykin's rather apocalyptic views of the current middle east conflict as God battling the forces of Satan has any bearing on his fitness to hold the senior intel position in the Pentagon.

God's battle against Satan has one direction and one conclusion, as described in Revelations. Will Boykin attempt to filter and fit conflicting data into this viewpoint?

As a Corps commander or CINCARCENT, I wouldn't give a **** if he thinks it's God's will, or what have you. As a chief intel weenie, I'd prefer a guy who doesn't have any particular ideological bent regarding his enemy, his allies, or the nature of the raw info or analysis that passes through his subordinates hands.

	19-10-2003 14:04									#77
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Imran:

quote: Basically the idea that all believers are among the elect is a Liberal Reform of Calvinism. The original idea is that only the elect are saved and not all believers are part of the elect.

No. Read the passage carefully.

"which asserts that Christ's death atones for the sins of all men, but only those who repent and believe are elect and receive forgiveness."

Those who repent and believe are the elect.

No distinction is made between those who believe and the elect. The only change from the original calvinism is that Christ did not atone for the sins of the elect, but for the sins of everyone.

	19-10-2003 18:03									#78
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I have a question, Somwhere in the bible Jesus said something like : I dont know the date of the end of the world, only the father knows that.

How could that be posible?
If Jesus is fully god he should know everything.

	19-10-2003 18:08									#79
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well, it could be said that Jesus is only a 3rd really.

Not that i am suggesting God has multiple personality disorder

	19-10-2003 19:31									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Then again, there are conflicts within Christian denominations as to the significance of works and grace in salvation, and Jews don't recognize Jesus as the messiah, either - so do Jews and different Christian denominations worship different gods? Or is it just "my God is the true God, and you are a heretic?"

There are theological differences, but all Christian denominations share the same core beliefs. So, we are still the same religion. We worship the same God. Whereas the differences between Christianity and Islam are much more radical. Christianity and Islam are two completely different religions. These fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam make it impossible that both are worshiping the same God.

Early Christianity grew out of Judaism. Early Christianity was essentially a different kind of Judaism. We both acknowledge the same God of the OT. Muslims do not! Islam and Judaism or Christianity do not share these common theological or historical connections. Islam grew from a completely different theological background with different prophets, and different core beliefs. It is a different religion, and therefore it has a different God.

	19-10-2003 19:37									#81
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quote: The God of the Bible teaches salvation through grace. Allah teaches salvation through works.

Catholics believe in salvation through works.

also, Arab Christians refer to God as Allah... yall do realize that 'God' is just the Germanic word for a supreme deity, right? it's different in other languages...

	19-10-2003 20:40									#82
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quote: No. Read the passage carefully. "which asserts that Christ's death atones for the sins of all men, but only those who repent and believe are elect and receive forgiveness." Those who repent and believe are the elect.

I have read the passage carefully. The LIBERAL revision of Calvanism says those who repent and believe are elect and recieve forgiveness.

	19-10-2003 22:14									#83
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IIRC Christains are saved through grace by accepting Jesus Christ as their savior, but it is expected that a true Christian will show himself through what he does, verbally and physically. It seems to me hen that it is more correct to say that Christians are saved through both grace and works.

Aren't there supposed to be 7 routes of salvation for Muslims?

	20-10-2003 12:42									#84
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quote: Catholics believe in salvation through works.

No they don't. Catholics reject sola fidae, or by faith alone, arguing that the works glorify God and any believer will want to do good things for God because they love and trust him.

Imran:

The difference between conservative and liberal Calvinism has to do with Christ's atonement. From your link:

"Also called "definite atonement" meaning that, Christ's death actually takes away the penalty of sins committed by those upon whom God has chosen to have mercy. It is "limited" then, to taking away the sins of the elect. "

This is the conservative Calvinism, while the liberal Calvinism states that Christ's death atoned for the sin of all believers, as I quoted in my last post.

	20-10-2003 12:47									#85
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quote: I have a question, Somwhere in the bible Jesus said something like : I dont know the date of the end of the world, only the father knows that. How could that be posible? If Jesus is fully god he should know everything.

Plan Austral:

God is omnipresent, but Jesus was not. Jesus has limited foreknowledge for the same reason in that there are certain limitations of taking on a human body.

However, while Jesus did bear some of our human limitations in the incarnation, he remained without sin, an indication that he was still of divine nature.

	20-10-2003 20:14									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Well, certain Calvinists do believe God predestined certain men to be damned from the beginning of time......

Yup.

I've always thought that was pretty badassed...

	20-10-2003 20:17									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should one believe Muhammed over Moses and all the other prophets?

This is the fatal flaw in your own religion too. In fact, it is the fatal flaw in all religions.

	20-10-2003 20:20									#88
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Muslims do not!

Go ahead and keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better. The truth is, you don't know jack **** about Islam.

	20-10-2003 20:42									#89
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat There are theological differences, but all Christian denominations share the same core beliefs. So, we are still the same religion. We worship the same God. Whereas the differences between Christianity and Islam are much more radical. Christianity and Islam are two completely different religions. These fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam make it impossible that both are worshiping the same God. Early Christianity grew out of Judaism. Early Christianity was essentially a different kind of Judaism. We both acknowledge the same God of the OT. Muslims do not! Islam and Judaism or Christianity do not share these common theological or historical connections. Islam grew from a completely different theological background with different prophets, and different core beliefs. It is a different religion, and therefore it has a different God.

Early Islam grew out of Christian and Jewish traditions. They claim that they we are all children of God, the Jews are different sons of Ibrahim from the others. This is why all the previous prophets (including Jesus pbh) are co-opted into Islam.

The fact that you can't accept this is quite worrying.

	20-10-2003 20:43									#90
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God is watching you -- even as you post nonsense on Apolyton.

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