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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:31
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Originally posted by Havak
You explained it very thoroughly, thank you. At the moment I believe I have a good grasp on it though I am sure it will not be long before I transgress. |
Too many people think it's complicated and confusing. It's not. It's simple and logical once it's understood.
There's another apostrophe ballsup I forgot to mention. One sees it everywhere. An example - "He was born in the 1970's". Why the apostrophe? The decade doesn't possess anything. I suspect it's a version of the greengrocer's apostrophe - creating a plural with an apostrophe - on the basis that the decade contained more than one year, ergo, it is somehow plural. It's not. "He was born in the 1970s" is the very simple and appropriate solution.
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And I guarantee I have made the possessive pronoun error with ‘its’ at some point in these threads – even though I do know better.  |
Mrs finbar did it in an email to me the other day. It was the classic "It's past it's prime". Naturally I replied, pointing it out to her. Naturally, she was horrified.
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My apologies regarding Catt – my excuse being Lomu scored more than one I’m sure – didn’t he get a hat trick? |
No. Four! Catt was at full back that day. Lomu ran over the top of him to score the first try in something like the first minute.
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but for me the try of that game for sheer rugby skills was that of Will Carling whose vision and skills were sublime for his score. |
Funny, that.
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As you are well ware the irony is not lost on me. |
Of course. And there you were hoping it might go unnoticed, and, more importantly, unreported. Nup. I owed it to Andydog who has stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the face of the Tory assaults.
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Another very simple irony would be that should France defeat us Sunday we will enter the six nations having lost three times in well over two calendar years, and with all three losses to France (and in the same period we will only have defeated them twice so they’ll be ahead on the board). Perfect preparation to pop to Paris and defeat them if so, ample incentive for them to get revenge if not so. |
Well, yes, I suppose that would qualify as an irony, but, on the Irony Richter Scale, barely a blip compared to a South African-born player saving your team's arse.
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You must not eliminate Franglais – how do you expect me to communicate next time I pop over for ‘Le Weekend’?  |
You learn the language!  There are very good language software programs!
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
I am not bothered with the Franglais in itself but by the way people use it or when the people use it because they don't know the french word instead.  |
Do you mean locals or visitors?
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I am far more worried by the fact most people don't know how to write properly in French and by the fact they don't care about the quality of what they are reading. The vast majority of them are not able to spot even the most obvious spelling mistakes.  |
 There are whole generations here who can't spell, can't construct a sentence, and even, horrifyingly, can't read. For some bizarre reason, schools abandoned the system of teaching kids to read phonetically - breaking down words into syllables, understanding the sounds, learning to recognise them and apply them. Instead, kids were taught to recognise words in the context in which they appeared without learning how the word's sound was created. Now there are adults who cannot read, who have to bluff their way through situation where they need to read. As a result, there's now a big push either to revert to the phonetic method or, at least, combine the methods.
Similar stupidity has taken place in the teaching of foreign languages here. French students these days, for example, aren't taught from the ground up - verbs and their conjugation, sentence structure, and so on. They learn via existing phrases and sentences. As a result, they don't recognise vas as the second person singular of aller. Va, the third person singular, is learned separately in another phrase or sentence. The end result is a student who might be able to speak French, but can't think in French - as opposed to thinking in English and trying to translate - which is the only way you're ever going to grasp the language. I know there was a push to revert to the original teaching methods, I'm not sure whether it has happened.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:31
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I only know that Betsen will be in charge of hunting Wilkinson and that Fabien Galthié will do his best to hinder Dawson's capacity to handle the ball to the said fly-half. |
It’s a huge test for Dawson, he needs to take the step up to the level Galthié has been playing at. Of course as well as Mr Betsen indulging in that hunt you will have Mr Hill doing exactly the same to Michalak. He is very talented your fly half, but he is very young too – perhaps the pressure of Hilly bearing down on him will help us.
Of course David Kirk has come out publicly to back both England and France to wallop the Wallabies should the Aussies ambush the ABs against all the odds. Well actually he still picked England to win the RWC on the grounds they are playing well within themselves (wish I was so optimistic)…though his heart still picks the ABs of course.
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Do you mean that irony is lost on me... |
Not at all – just letting Finbar know I understood where he was coming from.
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Prepare your handkerchief. |
Naturellement. Subsistance vôtre tout près aussi.
I know – my grammar is appalling – but does the general meaning come across?
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Too many people think it's complicated and confusing. It's not. It's simple and logical once it's understood. |
The key to this is that most English teachers do not explain it as well as you did.
That problem with the decades is very easy to find – a quick search on the web throws up numerous examples. It must drive a writer mad.
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Mrs finbar did it in an email to me the other day. It was the classic "It's past it's prime". Naturally I replied, pointing it out to her. Naturally, she was horrified. |
And is the bruise coming down nicely now?
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Lomu ran over the top of him to score the first try in something like the first minute. |
I watched it live. The game holds no new terrors for me – I did all my soul searching back then. In fact I finally got over it when we beat the ABs for the second game in a row in June. They have since won 11 tests in a row – what price 12 on Saturday?
As we were talking about irony yesterday there is another irony about Catt being seen as the saviour of English rugby on Sunday. As you pointed out he has played fullback, he has also played in both centre positions, but in the pre-Jonny and Clive years Jack Rowell gave Catt an extended run at Fly Half. Throughout that time he was roundly criticised for his (lack of) play making abilities and for his truly shocking kicking game. Both the factors in fact that he is now expected to be superb at on Sunday. Now that is ironic - despite the fact both aspects of his game have certainly improved?
More irony Finbar – we played fairly well but the man mountain did for us as was his wont. He had a jinx on England that he never quite consistently brought to bear in the same way on anyone else.
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And there you were hoping it might go unnoticed, and, more importantly, unreported. Nup. I owed it to Andydog who has stood shoulder-to-shoulder in the face of the Tory assaults. |
Should I retort saying ‘cast not the first stone’ for the alliance of the barbarian nations?
Let me put it this way – Mike Catt has been here since 1987 so qualifies even under my draconian residency suggestions. And frankly if he wins the game for us Sunday I’ll revise my opinion totally and say what a wonderful Englishman he is. Pragmatic hypocrisy – it’s the English way.
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but, on the Irony Richter Scale, barely a blip compared to a South African-born player saving your team's arse. |
You may be guilty of labouring this soon? So where does the irony I pointed out above rank – being brought in for qualities he has always been criticised for?
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You learn the language! There are very good language software programs! |
It is a question of time. I have learning materials for French and German but never get the chance to use them. No it’s the trusty phrase book, twenty year old ‘O’ level and plucky Brit ‘have a go’ attitude that gets me by. I find the French are fine with you as long as you make the effort – walk up to them and start speaking in English and you deserve to be cold shouldered!
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Oh, and if it makes life harder for Havak and his drunken mates, so much the better! |
Leave my team of cultural ambassadors out of this!
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36C predicted in Sydney's west tomorrow and Sunday. Don't ask where the stadium is. |
Perfect conditions for running rugby – and no chance of injury on rock hard ground.  Can we shoot the arses who approved an RWC in the Australian summer?
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
He is very talented your fly half, but he is very young too – perhaps the pressure of Hilly bearing down on him will help us. |
M'sieur Michalak will hear the walking frame coming.
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The key to this is that most English teachers do not explain it as well as you did. |
There are several generations of English teachers who don't understand basic grammar anyway. They came through the system when basic grammar was considered old hat.
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And is the bruise coming down nicely now? |
Actually, she was horrified that she'd done it. Apparently she did something similar in an email to someone else the other day, realised it too late, and sent a correction.
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You may be guilty of labouring this soon? |
I'll flog it till it rolls over and dies!
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So where does the irony I pointed out above rank – being brought in for qualities he has always been criticised for? |
Yes, it's choice irony. And, as someone pointed out on the FoxSports rugby show tonight, starting the game is quite a bit different from coming off the bench at halftime.
But the choicest part of the rugby show tonight was the package of highlights they showed of England's - mainly Mr Moody's - dodgy tactics around the ruck, quietly trotting around to an offside position, interfering with the defenders.
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It is a question of time. I have learning materials for French and German but never get the chance to use them. |
You could stop going to the pub and use that time to apply yourself to your languages!
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Perfect conditions for running rugby – and no chance of injury on rock hard ground. Can we shoot the arses who approved an RWC in the Australian summer? |
It will have cooled down a bit by 8pm. Probably should be a mild 25C or so.
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:31
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M'sieur Michalak will hear the walking frame coming. |
But knowing that it is coming will not help him avoid it (paraphrasing his coach from earlier in the week).
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There are several generations of English teachers who don't understand basic grammar anyway. They came through the system when basic grammar was considered old hat. |
When the genie is out of the bottle like that how do you go about getting it back in?
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Actually, she was horrified that she'd done it. Apparently she did something similar in an email to someone else the other day, realised it too late, and sent a correction. |
At the risk of donning a sexist hat that is a very female response to realising a mistake like that?
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I'll flog it till it rolls over and dies! |
It still has a strong pulse.
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And, as someone pointed out on the FoxSports rugby show tonight, starting the game is quite a bit different from coming off the bench at halftime. |
And that is an excellent point. I guess the thinking is that once we are fifty points up Tindall can come on and do his bash it up the line act to slow the game down?
Still lest I think only England are being picked on by the Aussie media it seems the mechanisms are gearing up to have a go at the Kiwi’s – lots of accusations of choking being aired I understand – especially by your favourite former Wallaby coach turned shock jock?
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But the choicest part of the rugby show tonight was the package of highlights they showed of England's - mainly Mr Moody's - dodgy tactics around the ruck, quietly trotting around to an offside position, interfering with the defenders. |
Fox sports concentrating only on English misdemeanours? A blindside flanker involved in ‘naughty’ work. I’m totally and utterly shocked! He’s pretty good at the naughty stuff though eh? And time Foxsports turned that pedantic analysis on other sides maybe?
For the record it is my firm belief that French, Australian and Kiwi flankers never indulge in anything illegal at any time in any game – they are the paragons of virtue to which all naughty nasty arrogant English players should aspire. There is also a Pig flying past my office window right now, I keep my life savings in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and rate Justin Harrison as the best lock to ever grace the game.
Let us get that :sarcasm: smilie soon please.
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You could stop going to the pub and use that time to apply yourself to your languages! |
Let me do a quick Cost-benefit analysis on that one. Beer? Study? I’m embarrassed to even feed those variables in to the equation…
BEER WINS
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It will have cooled down a bit by 8pm. Probably should be a mild 25C or so. |
At least those fancy fabrics will keep them all nice and warm in such shockingly cool conditions.
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Tamerlin
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Toulouse (South-western France)
Apr 2002
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by finbar
There are whole generations here who can't spell, can't construct a sentence, and even, horrifyingly, can't read. For some bizarre reason, schools abandoned the system of teaching kids to read phonetically - breaking down words into syllables, understanding the sounds, learning to recognise them and apply them. Instead, kids were taught to recognise words in the context in which they appeared without learning how the word's sound was created. Now there are adults who cannot read, who have to bluff their way through situation where they need to read. As a result, there's now a big push either to revert to the phonetic method or, at least, combine the methods.
Similar stupidity has taken place in the teaching of foreign languages here. French students these days, for example, aren't taught from the ground up - verbs and their conjugation, sentence structure, and so on. They learn via existing phrases and sentences. As a result, they don't recognise vas as the second person singular of aller. Va, the third person singular, is learned separately in another phrase or sentence. The end result is a student who might be able to speak French, but can't think in French - as opposed to thinking in English and trying to translate - which is the only way you're ever going to grasp the language. I know there was a push to revert to the original teaching methods, I'm not sure whether it has happened. |
IMO, the problem goes beyond the educationial system even if it holds a great reponsability in the current situation. All along my school attendance the educational system and the media told us that someone was intelligent if he was good in maths. This policy had some severe drawbacks, I quickly abandonned all claims to intelligence and the literary skills were greatly underrated.
Then came the various reforms and the new methods of learning which created a whole generation of students unable to cope with grammar.
But when someone likes to read and write there is no reason why he could not overcome such obstacles and this is here that lies the real problem as far as I am concerned. I remember the kind of authors we were forced to read when I was between 13 and 16 years old, Victor Hugo, Zola, Stendhal, Racine, Madame Bovary, Molière... The problem is that when you are a teenager (remember I was listening at AC/DC at this time) you don't care a cent about the dramas they are telling and moreover you don't have the necessary knowledge and background to really understand what they are talking about. Another problem is that a teacher is not ready to hear that you don't like a book he has asked you to read (I know that for sure, I did it).
The result is that I strongly dislike classical literature and never read such kind of books. It is only with J.R.R Tolkien's "The Hobbit" (I was 15 years old at this time) that I discovered there was another kind of literatures and that some authors were writing something other than dramas and stories about human misery. At the same time I discovered Role Playing Games and this gave me the occasion to start writing my own stories. I am somehow a survivor of the French educational system.
Though the supposed link between intelligence and mathematics is no more as strong as it was in the past it has nonetheless caused many damages as language skills are still underrated and because a whole generation doesn't know how to read and write properly and this generation is in charge to teach their youngs how to write and read, or at least help them to do so. 
Another problem is that the rythm of our lives is accelerating constantly and that people have less and less time and energy to devote to their children and to reading. For most of the people, it is easier to indulge into passive activities (TV brainwash for example) rather than active ones (reading, playing and even talking).
But this is not the only problem, writing skills are no more praised in the companies where most of the low level managers are themselves illeterate. And in a world where money leads the dance there is no reason why you should improve your French when it is of no use (because it does not bring any money nor any recognition).
The serpent is biting is own tail...
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Havak
When the genie is out of the bottle like that how do you go about getting it back in? |
Educate the educators, revise the system. And, eventually, generations of teachers will come through who have been through the revised system.
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At the risk of donning a sexist hat that is a very female response to realising a mistake like that? |
I'll run that by her to see if she thinks it's sexist. Still, I enjoy correcting her when she mixes up "bought" and "brought". I have no idea why she does, she knows the difference. Lack of concentration, perhaps. I can safely say that here and now. She's away in Alice Springs at the moment on a location survey.
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It still has a strong pulse. |
It will be working long after its pulse has stopped. A deader horse will never have been flogged.
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Still lest I think only England are being picked on by the Aussie media it seems the mechanisms are gearing up to have a go at the Kiwi’s – lots of accusations of choking being aired I understand – especially by your favourite former Wallaby coach turned shock jock? |
I wouldn't know, I pay no attention to him. Despicable turd. Of course people are talking up the ABs' history of choking. And the ABs are talking themselves down, talking up the Wallabies. Everyone's at it. Clive's talking up the Wallabies. Anyone who takes any of it with more than grain of salt is off their head.
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For the record it is my firm belief that French, Australian and Kiwi flankers never indulge in anything illegal at any time in any game – they are the paragons of virtue to which all naughty nasty arrogant English players should aspire. There is also a Pig flying past my office window right now, I keep my life savings in the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, and rate Justin Harrison as the best lock to ever grace the game. |
There you go with the heavy-handed again. Less is better!
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Let me do a quick Cost-benefit analysis on that one. Beer? Study? I’m embarrassed to even feed those variables in to the equation…
BEER WINS |
You sound like the worst Australian,
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finbar
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Castiglion Fiorentino, Italy
Jan 1970
time: 06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Tamerlin
IMO, the problem goes beyond the educationial system even if it holds a great reponsability in the current situation. All along my school attendance the educational system and the media told us that someone was intelligent if he was good in maths. This policy had some severe drawbacks, I quickly abandonned all claims to intelligence and the literary skills were greatly underrated. |
I don't know whether it was a difference between countries, or that I went to a very good school - which I did - but, at my school, there was no distinction drawn between maths and humanities. They were simply different streams, given equal importance.
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Then came the various reforms and the new methods of learning which created a whole generation of students unable to cope with grammar. |
Yes, well, it sounds like we all suffered that problem.
quote:
But when someone likes to read and write there is no reason why he could not overcome such obstacles and this is here that lies the real problem as far as I am concerned. I remember the kind of authors we were forced to read when I was between 13 and 16 years old, Victor Hugo, Zola, Stendhal, Racine, Madame Bovary, Molière... The problem is that when you are a teenager (remember I was listening at AC/DC at this time) you don't care a cent about the dramas they are telling and moreover you don't have the necessary knowledge and background to really understand what they are talking about. Another problem is that a teacher is not ready to hear that you don't like a book he has asked you to read (I know that for sure, I did it). |
Mmmm. I was very, very lucky. My English teacher in Years 11 and 12 was remarkable. We had all the usual set texts - Shakespeare, Thomas Eliot, Jane Austen, Chaucer, Dickens, as well as a big range of comtemporary material - but he encouraged us to challenge them - and him - if we felt we could or should. He encouraged individual thought. He drew boundaries, obviously, but there was a tremendous freedom. And I'm, um, quite a bit older than you are, so it was almost a different generation. I was listening to the Beatles!
A couple of years ago I told that teacher - Mr MacFarlane, who would then have been only about 30 - that he had, without knowing it, encouraged me to be a writer. In those days, I had no idea I wanted to be one, of course, but he gave a licence to think and dream and experiment, and that's what encouraged me. He was rather touched when I told him. He said he'd never had an original thought in his life. Even if he hadn't, what he did have was a very important gift - communication, and through it, the means to enthuse in an area that can, as you experienced, otherwise be a dire experience.
Anyway, apart from helping us to enjoy the set texts, he would take us to his home where he kept an enormous personal library. We could borrow any of his books that appealed to us - and there were books in his library that, had our parents known we had access to them, they would have been, um, rather cross. So we were exposed to a very broad range of literature.
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The result is that I strongly dislike classical literature and never read such kind of books. |
That's a shame. And I'm sure it's quite common. OTOH, I still think Middlemarch is one of the greatest novels ever written. I read it three times in two years when I was 17 and 18.
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I am somehow a survivor of the French educational system. |
I think I was probably lucky. I'm sure there are also many people here who ended up feeling as you did. Or, even, do.
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Though the supposed link between intelligence and mathematics is no more as strong as it was in the past it has nonetheless caused many damages as language skills are still underrated and because a whole generation doesn't know how to read and write properly and this generation is in charge to teach their youngs how to write and read, or at least help them to do so. |
I think the problems starts with educational theorists who hatch all sorts of totally unworkable ideas. A pox on them!
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Another problem is that the rythm of our lives is accelerating constantly and that people have less and less time and energy to devote to their children and to reading. For most of the people, it is easier to indulge into passive activities (TV brainwash for example) rather than active ones (reading, playing and even talking). |
I feel sorry for the younger generations these days. Of course, they call me a boring old fart. But I can conjugate a verb and parse a sentence and correct them when they use "less" instead of "fewer" - so f*** them!
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Havak
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Swing Low, Sweet Chariots.
Aug 1999
time: 05:31
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But I can conjugate a verb and parse a sentence and correct them when they use "less" instead of "fewer" - so f*** them! |
There are less people these days who would understand what you mean.
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Yes, that's always the danger. The culture is slightly different here, with pressure groups who work hard to change things |
Score this one to Australia then. By a huge margin.
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Look, I think it boils down to laziness. I think a lot of the bastardisation of the language is laziness. Near enough is good enough. |
Partly true for sure. Here at least it is also partly tribal identity – areas define themselves through their interpretation of our language. I have had to translate for both Geordies and Scots in Sydney –it’s not just accent a lot of the words and phrases are unique variations.
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Let me assure you that I would rather lose the option to taunt you over a South African-born player saving your arse than have to suffer the win. |
Again you shock me to the core!
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All mind games. I doubt that any coach or player takes them seriously. |
I do wonder some times.
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Les Grenouilles have been a huge hit, I'm here to tell you. |
It’s wisely acknowledged here that the entire Aussie nation is behind them. It doesn’t really matter that they have made a good impression – the Aussies would have backed them anyway.
Remember me mentioning John Inverdale, the BBC anchor down there? He did a walkabout in Sydney on Thursday blagging Kiwis and Aussies and asking them one simple question “If X beat you in the semi and it’s England in the final who will you back?” Naturally 100% of Australians answered “the Kiwis” even if some hesitated briefly. What surprised him was despite some soul searching every single Kiwi went for the Aussies too. It is good to be so popular he concluded!
If they ask me the same question I’ll be picking X too of course.
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Translate it as Master Wilkinson, as in Young Master, as in callow youth. |
Merci.
*edit* Just found this on the BBC sport site
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"France and England have a love-hate relationship," said Gaetan de L'Hermite who has a foot in both camps as club captain of London French, the exiles team who play in the Middlesex and Hertfordshire leagues.
"There are a lot of similarities and if you take the best of both countries then you're closer to paradise.
"My heart wants France to win and I genuinely think there's a chance for us.
"They are reaching the peak of their form and it is a completely different than the matches in the Six Nations.
"But on paper I still think England have the best team.
"We can't wait to get down the pub and watch the match on Sunday." |
I just know Tamerlin will love the second paragraph of that quote. And yes as indicated by the closing comment an awful lot of pubs are opening at 8am on a Sunday this weekend.
Last edited by Havak on 14-11-2003 at 20:40
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14-11-2003 04:16
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