01-12-2003 21:35									#181
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Then again, maybe Asimov* was right.

Then again, maybe this is not bias, but about consistent idiocy from the Bush regime. After the fall of the taliban, they went completely gaga within their ideological lala-land.

	01-12-2003 21:37									#182
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Sadly, this pattern took shape long before Bush came into office.

	01-12-2003 21:39									#183
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Where?

Local online newspaper, I assume they got it from the wires. Which is why I had an "if correct" there.

	01-12-2003 21:42									#184
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Sadly, this pattern took shape long before Bush came into office.

That's not correct, I was grudgingly in favour of the Kosovo war, for example. But Greenspan has always been an idiot, if you mean that.

But go ahead, establish that pattern.

	01-12-2003 21:44									#185
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Which is why I had an "if correct" there.

Sorry. I was curious in light of the upward revision in the casualty reports and assumed that you had at least some basis in fact for the post because I haven't seen any basis for the assumption in the stories I've read thus far.

	01-12-2003 21:45									#186
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"But go ahead, establish that pattern."

Not my pattern to establish. I just note trends, not make them.

	01-12-2003 22:50									#187
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quote: Originally posted by shawnmmcc It's the worthless statement that you seem to be justifying. The men who authorized and carried out the gassing of an entire Kurdish town. They qualify as a worthless piece of ****. A stupid teenager doesn't.

It depends. Teenage fighters and suiciders aren't uncommon in the ME, and the US has had teenage casualties. When I was in my teens, I had a similar age friend whose family had just moved from Beirut. (This was in the mid-70's) At ten years old he'd been a courier in one of the militias, at 12 a weapons and ammo carrier, and at 16 a combat veteran. Get him out of the environment, and luckily, he was fairly well adjusted and a cool kid, but he was certainly capable of killing.

quote: Instead you stick to you straw man examples, hotheaded teenagers and macho testosterone junkies (which I tried to use, hoping you would see the point). Most of the dead are individuals who just didn't understand the rules, or how they worked, or just panicked. Often children are passengers in those cars, and just as often they are casualties. You don't address that issue at all.

Gee, children being used as weapons for propaganda purposes in war? Who would do such a thing?

"didn't understand the rules" is more than a bit disingenuous - the Baath/Hussein regime was totalitarian, and there were checkpoints and access controls to numerous places in Iraq - it's not like the concept is new to anyone, and the operations of US checkpoints are certainly not new either.

And who's to say at this point that every "martyr" has to carry a load of explosives - simply running a checkpoint as an "innocent civilian" - getting killed is getting killed, and if one martyr does it to score a propaganda and psychological victory by blowing up diplomats or Iraqi police or the UN, who's to say the other martyr doesn't do it to score a propaganda victory be deliberately testing a checkpoint?

quote: Once you start seeing the unintended, and unfortunately inevitable, casualties at those checkpoints as a worthless piece of ****, your occupying force is on the way to losing.

When you're in a kill or somebody else will be killed situation, with no pause button, no reload cheat, no chance to hesitate or think it over, and there's no good excuse for running the checkpoint - if people "panic" the normal reactions are backing up, turning around, stopping before the checkpoint, bailing out of the vehicle - not accellerating straight toward the checkpoint and ignoring warning shots.

quote: Fortunely, the American GI's don't see these casualties as you do. That's what makes me proud. They are emotionally torn up, often in tears, as they have tried to mend the broken bodies that they have no choice (see, I still agree with you on how these check points need to be run) in making.

There's a difference between small kids as passengers with no choice in their actions and no possible threat, and the drivers of those vehicles who force the escalation to fire for effect.

quote: I can't remember, somebody took a photo of a GI with one of those kids, I caught the interview. If that GI could talk to you, after holding the mangled kid in his arms, I have a suspicion he wouldn't be quite so, shall we so, reasonable in his disagreement.

Most of these guys have never been under fire, and never fired a shot at a live target before. Again, you distinguish between unavoidable victims, and those whose deliberate actions cause those casualties.

	01-12-2003 22:57									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: I am sad you are going over there to represent our country. Don't listen to this jagoff, Oerdin. I'm proud of you and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Here's hoping you help grease some of those sacks of **** and come home in one piece.

i am also proud

	01-12-2003 23:01									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Sorry, I meant are you a combat engineer?

oh, no. i may eventually have an engineering degree tho, and its always nice to see my fellow academics kicking ass

	01-12-2003 23:02									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal Why not? US soldiers are so scared... It would not be strange at all.

Actually, it would be extremely strange, because we train them to fire in specific sectors and overwatch each other, and if Americans (or anyone else) are "firing indiscriminately" that's an ineffective defensive posture that renders you very susceptible to unnecessary casualties.

Also, it's typical of dumbass reporters who have no military experience to make inaccurate characterizations of what's happening, even if they see it.

	01-12-2003 23:14									#191
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Sorry. I was curious in light of the upward revision in the casualty reports and assumed that you had at least some basis in fact for the post because I haven't seen any basis for the assumption in the stories I've read thus far.

Which I haven't seen either, there is no reference to a body count regarding the 54 killed. Oddly enough, the local Iraqi morgue reported 8 dead IIRC, so maybe some bureaucrat in uniform just added it to the 46 estimate.

	02-12-2003 00:03									#192
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It seems most deads ´attackers´ are not Saddam loyalists, but civilians fighting in self defence when US soldiers began firing ramdom.

From Yahoo News :

quote: Many residents said Saddam loyalists attacked the Americans, but that when U.S. forces began firing at random, many civilians got their guns and joined the fight. Many said residents were bitter about recent U.S. raids in the night. "Why do they arrest people when they're in their homes?" asked Athir Abdul Salam, a 19-year-old student. "They come at night to arrest people. So what do they expect those people to do?" "Civilians shot back at the Americans," said 30-year-old Ali Hassan, who was wounded by shrapnel in the battle. "They claim we are terrorists. So OK, we are terrorists. What do they expect when they drive among us?" Many residents said the Americans opened fire at random when they came under attack, and targeted civilian installations. Six destroyed vehicles sat in front of the hospital, where witnesses said U.S. tanks shelled people dropping off the injured. A kindergarten was damaged, apparently by tank shells. No children were hurt. "Luckily, we evacuated the children five minutes before we came under attack," said Ibrahim Jassim, a 40-year-old guard at the kindergarten. "Why did they attack randomly? Why did they shoot a kindergarten with tank shells?

And i give much more credibility to many residents, radomly selected by ´dumbass reporters´ and without relation between them, than any US military official saying what somebody in washington has ordered.

	02-12-2003 00:08									#193
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Why let facts get in the way of a good theory, eh?

	02-12-2003 00:16									#194
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I don't know how to reconcile the body counts. That's a definite question.

quote: And i give much more credibility to many residents, radomly selected by ´dumbass reporters´ and without relation between them, than any US military official saying what somebody in washington has ordered.

I don't. You left out the pro-Saddam demonstration that was going on when the reporters arrived. In this situation, the agendas become pretty thick.

	02-12-2003 00:20									#195
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quote: And i give much more credibility to many residents, radomly selected by ´dumbass reporters´ and without relation between them, than any US military official saying what somebody in washington has ordered.

In short, you give credence to those who support your biases. As do we all.

	02-12-2003 03:08									#196
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I give credence to people that saw it.

quote: In short, you give credence to those who support your biases.

Then every people in Iraq seems biased against US and it´s allies. It does not say anything to you?

	02-12-2003 03:10									#197
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nm

	02-12-2003 03:19									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I thought that there were nearly 100,000 men already enlisted in the Iraqi defense force? That would make a rather unweildy battalion. .

There are at least 5 different forces, that im aware of.

1. The Iraqi police - mostly already policemen, given brush ups on human rights etc. About 60,000 i think. How theyre doing depends on who you listen to - theyre all corrupt and inefficient, theyre brave, noble etc. Suspect its a pretty mixed bag. Theyve been patrolling alongside US MP's learnign on the job,etc. They are locally recruited, so quality probably varies from place to place, with degree of prior experience, etc. Mainly doing police work - which is important, crime - kidnapping for ransom, rape, etc is as big a problem there as terrorism and guerriallla war. Seem to be slowly getting it under control. Also doing some security of course, but thats not the main idea

2. Facility protection forces. These are the security guards of whom MTG speaks. Minimal trainng, but seem to mainly do their jobs, have relieved coalition troops of much routine guard duty.

3. Army - yup, just one battalion so far.

4. the expedient to fight until the army is trained up. Get about 6 weeks training, I think. Mainly ex-soldiers. Theyve only started into the fight, too early to say, I think. About 15,000 so far?

5. Border police - Dont know much about them

	02-12-2003 03:21									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal I give credence to people that saw it. Then every people in Iraq seems biased against US and it´s allies. It does not say anything to you?

1. Sunni arabs in Samarra. Once again - Saddams Iraq was in some ways an apartheid state. These guys are the equivalent of Afrikaners.
2. Even granted that, its possible the minority of friendlies were hiding inside.

	02-12-2003 03:24									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Daz I'd like to remind everyone that the Vietnam war had fewer US casualties in the first 200 days than the Iraq war. Lets see how this evolves...

citation please. Ive seen this before, and IIRC its based on a "start date" to the viet nam war several years before there were any US ground combat troops.

	02-12-2003 03:26									#201
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "Yeah!!!!" Are you the cheer leader for the iraqi resistance now?

you mean the iraqi counter-revolutionaries. Lets not dignify the Fedayeen Saddam with the title of resistance.

	02-12-2003 03:59									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Thorgal And i give much more credibility to many residents, radomly selected by ´dumbass reporters´ and without relation between them, than any US military official saying what somebody in washington has ordered.

A few months ago, you could have randomly interviewed any resident, and he or she would have happily told you how the Iraqi people were all ready to die for Saddam, how he was the savior of the country and the greatest leader, and how all the Iraqi people loved and supported him.

And now it's "oh, we're innocent civilians, but we just happened to have our guns with us, and happened to stick around when a bunch of armed Fedayeen set up an ambush directly across from a major bank. Even when we heard the American vehicles approaching, we just innocently minded out business and parked in the middle of the street, with our guns nearby of course, and then when the Fedayeen attacked the Americans and the Americans shot back, we happened to grab our guns and head towards the fight, not away from it, and not just duck down - but as innocent Iraqi civilians^TM our first inclination was to take small arms (oh, I won't mention the RPG or two, since we're innocent civilians, oh yes) and go after Abrams and Bradleys."

	02-12-2003 03:59									#203
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quote: 1. Sunni arabs in Samarra. Once again - Saddams Iraq was in some ways an apartheid state. These guys are the equivalent of Afrikaners.

Shii leader Al Hakim has already requested the withdrawal of foreign troops.

OTH, Dont bet too much on Shia. In some years there would be another fundamentalist state in ME.

	02-12-2003 04:19									#204
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat A few months ago, you could have randomly interviewed any resident, and he or she would have happily told you how the Iraqi people were all ready to die for Saddam, how he was the savior of the country and the greatest leader, and how all the Iraqi people loved and supported him. And now it's "oh, we're innocent civilians, but we just happened to have our guns with us, and happened to stick around when a bunch of armed Fedayeen set up an ambush directly across from a major bank. Even when we heard the American vehicles approaching, we just innocently minded out business and parked in the middle of the street, with our guns nearby of course, and then when the Fedayeen attacked the Americans and the Americans shot back, we happened to grab our guns and head towards the fight, not away from it, and not just duck down - but as innocent Iraqi civiliansTM our first inclination was to take small arms (oh, I won't mention the RPG or two, since we're innocent civilians, oh yes) and go after Abrams and Bradleys."

	02-12-2003 04:34									#205
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I was about to post that the Americans were superior to the Iraqis, in that they don't dance on the corpses of their enemies.
That was before reading this thread

At least 8 civilians dead, and you cheer MtG. Sorry to say that, but you suck MtG, as any other guy who chimed in

	02-12-2003 04:37									#206
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quote: I was about to post that the Americans were superior to the Iraqis, in that they don't dance on the corpses of their enemies.

Anybody else have a hard time believing that Spiffor logged on tonight to come here and post the thread "Why I think Americans are better than the Iraqis: They don't dance on the corpses of their enemies."?

	02-12-2003 04:41									#207
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Anybody else have a hard time believing that Spiffor logged on tonight to come here and post the thread "Why I think Americans are better than the Iraqis: They don't dance on the corpses of their enemies."?

I was outraged by the pics of Iraqis dancing on Spanish corpses, pics I've seen today in the papers.
When I've heard the news about today's firefight, shortly before logging in, I seriously didn't expect anybody to gloat over it.

What MtG is doing is exactly as despicable as what Piktis was doing during the actual war: he gloats over casualties

	02-12-2003 04:44									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor At least 8 civilians dead, and you cheer MtG. Sorry to say that, but you suck MtG, as any other guy who chimed in

At leas eight civilians dead, huh? Who's reporting that, and what's the confirmation - the same limpdicked Saddam-apologist press who insists every Iraqi casualty is a "poor civilian" while every American is running amok like 125,000 Rambos napalming elementary schools?

The lefty bullshit press is even getting on it's knees and nicely swallowing the line that "civilians" just happened to be around and grabbed their guns and attacked the US force. Yes, those guys with guns shooting at you are "innocent civilians" so don't shoot back, just sit here and take it.

Well **** them, and anyone else who can't handle it.

	02-12-2003 04:50									#209
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From Euronews:

quote: Irak : 54 morts dans l'affrontement de Samarra Réveil difficile dans la ville de Samarra au lendemain de l'affrontement sanglant entre les forces américaines et des miliciens irakien habillés en Feddayin de Saddam. Pris dans une séries d'embuscades à l'entrée de la bourgade, les soldats de la coalition ont répliqué massivement : bilan, des bus détruits, des murs criblés de balle et 54 morts, principalement parmi la population, des civils au mauvais endroit au mauvais moment. Attaqués au lance roquette, grenade et arme automatique, les GI's ont répondu à l'arme légère et par des tirs de chars. Les quartiers de Samarra semblent dévastés. La mosquée a fait les fraits de l'affrontement. Plusieurs impacts de balles sont visibles. Dans la rue, les bâtiments, utilisés comme poste de tir par les assaillants ont été détruits. Le triangle sunnite au nord de Bagdad, est la région où se concentrent les majorités des attaques anti-coalition. Selon le directeur de l'hôpital, 8 civils ont été tués dans ces affrontements et près d'une soixantaine de personnes ont été blessées, parmi lesquels des femmes et des enfants. Pour le porte-parole du gouvernement provisoire, Aumed Shya'a al-Barak, la réponse américaine était dans un sens disproportionnée, mais néanmoins en accord avec la mission de répression de la guérilla

In short:
54 killed. According to the hospital's director, 8 civilians dead. At least 60 wonded, including women and children.

Gloat on...

	02-12-2003 05:00									#210
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MtG. You know what empathy is?