04-12-2003 10:28									#151
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Moving, derailed trains and Galactus on BZ gas

	04-12-2003 10:47									#152
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So, as we learn more, putting the obese man on his stomach with hands behind his back may have caused him to stop breathing. The cops saw this and did nothing for three minutes.

My God, what a bad situation. You gotta feel for the victim even if he somewhat brought this on himself.

	04-12-2003 10:52									#153
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It really is terrible with that known

Christ, aren't they to know full out the standard first aid procedures?

	04-12-2003 11:14									#154
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Jimmytrick - to subdue suspects although I'm not sure why this guy was suspect. And they have training on how to use batons to avoid fatal injuries, apparently they didn't have training in CPR or basic human physiology or they wouldn't have suffocated the guy and let him die.

	04-12-2003 11:26									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Can you be more specific and shall we move that debate here now?

Let's not take the other debate here -- but go back, and look at your statement you made in my other thread about gays and cultural contributions.

End of discussion on that here -- respond in the relevant thread.

	04-12-2003 11:32									#156
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I did, it was a joke. Obviously one you didn't find funny... But I did...

	04-12-2003 11:36									#157
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What a difference a few hours make -- I get back on here, and I replied here before looking at the other thread.

	04-12-2003 11:37									#158
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Me too

	04-12-2003 11:40									#159
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Well that makes me feel a LITTLE less stupid.

	04-12-2003 12:42									#160
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I'm surprised that for once Zylka's pharmaceutical expertise has been used for a constructive post.

	04-12-2003 12:47									#161
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I have reversed my position on this.

First of all the cops had no business harrassing the guy. If they had left him alone none of this would have happened. And then they cause the big man to exert himself causing him to die. If the cops left him alone he would still be alive. Sure he may have only lived a year or two, but he'd still be alive.

And finally the lack of actions when they realized he wasn't breathing.

I won't say charge them with murder. But maybe negligant homide or manslaughter possibly.

Yes the coroner calling this a homicide helped sway my change of position. The coroner could have called this an accident, but he didn't

	04-12-2003 12:51									#162
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I have trouble telling when you aren't trolling anymore.

	04-12-2003 12:55									#163
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick Okay, maybe I am dense but if the cops aren't supposed to use their sticks on an agressive 400lb. pcp lit, coked up guy, when are they supposed to use their sticks and what are they supposed to use them for?

I have no problem with them using the sticks. That is perfectly legal. What I saw on the video tape doesn't constitute a police beating. I do not consider this police brutality, but I do think the cops are responsible for his death.

	04-12-2003 12:57									#164
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I have trouble telling when you aren't trolling anymore.

I can't tell either

I don't consider this police brutality as I said above. The police acted according to the book to get this guy cuffed. They are supposed to use the sticks in that way. But the fact they did nothing when the guy wasn't breathing

The police are going to have to review cuffing people's arms behind their back. They should probably cuff people's arms in front of them. If they do cuff people's arms behind their back they should not do it while putting weight on them.

on second thought maybe the cops shouldn't be charged with a crime, but I'm okay with a lawsuit against the police department.

	04-12-2003 17:14									#165
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I dont think anyone is still arguing that the cops used excessive force. Now the question is why nothing was done when he wasnt breathing?

	05-12-2003 01:58									#166
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According to the doctor on the Greta show, the cuffing of the hands behind the back was itself a source of he problem with such a fat individual. The cops may not have known this as many of us did not know this. But if they had known, they should never have cuffed him behind the back in the first place. But, once he started having difficulty breathing, what they should have done is uncuff him and roll him on his back.

	05-12-2003 02:57									#167
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The man may have been big enough to have Pickwick's syndrome, a condition of respiratory restriction due to obesity. Very overweight people have large amounts of fat in their abdominal cavities, which limits the motion of the diaphragm, hence reducing the amount of air that they take in with each breath. Over a long period of time this condition then causes some degree of congestive heart failure. The combination of respiratory restriction secondary to obesity, and the resulting secondary heart failure is known as "Pickwick's Syndrome", after a Dickens character. Such a person would be very vulnerabnle to anything putting more limitation on his breathing because not only would he start out with less respiratory reserve, but also his heart would be pumping whatever O2 and CO2 he was able to exchange less efficiently. Cocaine and PCP reduce myocardial efficiency even further, aggrevating the condition.

	05-12-2003 04:29									#168
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One good thing that may come out of this tragedy is that police across the world may alter their procedures when dealing with people of the girth of the victim.

	05-12-2003 07:23									#169
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I'd love to hear some suggestions? It had just taken six cops 10 min or so to subdue and handcuff a 350 lb guy on PCP. I would guess that their first thought is not gonna be "we better let the fat **** go or else he'll suffocate".

	05-12-2003 07:58									#170
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SpencerH, I was thinking more of cuffing him with his hands tied behind his back and/or forcing him to lie on his belly.

	05-12-2003 09:35									#171
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quote: I'd love to hear some suggestions? It had just taken six cops 10 min or so to subdue and handcuff a 350 lb guy on PCP. I would guess that their first thought is not gonna be "we better let the fat **** go or else he'll suffocate".

He wasn't breathing, what threat did he pose in that condition? And the struggle was between the guy and 2 cops, that doesn't mean he could overcome 6 or more cops once he came to lying on his back recovering from a near death experience.

	05-12-2003 12:14									#172
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'd love to hear some suggestions? It had just taken six cops 10 min or so to subdue and handcuff a 350 lb guy on PCP. I would guess that their first thought is not gonna be "we better let the fat **** go or else he'll suffocate".

Considering this guy was all fat and no muscle, and considering how clumsy and uncoordinated his attack on the officer was, I can't say for certain how much of a real threat he was -- he had to be subdued though, no question -- and arrested.

	05-12-2003 12:52									#173
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what did I just say Mr. Fun.

Really fat people are really strong. Are you saying this guy has the same strength as me (I weigh 140 pounds) because neither of us work out? Not a chance. Fat people have to be stronger to carry their own weight. Including their arms.

This guy was no weakling. And black people in general are stronger than white people. Yes that sounds racist, but the stats don't lie- just compare body sizes of the african/american population to the american/caucasian population.

In any case, I won't fault the cops for not knowing about cuffing a guy that large. I'm sure they were never trained on that. But a lawsuit is coming either way.

	05-12-2003 17:18									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ned SpencerH, I was thinking more of cuffing him with his hands tied behind his back and/or forcing him to lie on his belly.

Thats probably how he was positioned when he died.

	05-12-2003 17:24									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker He wasn't breathing, what threat did he pose in that condition? And the struggle was between the guy and 2 cops, that doesn't mean he could overcome 6 or more cops once he came to lying on his back recovering from a near death experience.

If they had noticed he wasnt breathing (and they should have monitored him while in their custody) they should have carried out emergency first aid. That doesnt mean you release him from handcuffs.

No, the initial struggle was 2 cops; 4 more turn up before he is finally cuffed. Its very difficult to handcuff someone that size especially if they are resisting.

EDIT some grammar.

	05-12-2003 20:05									#176
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Determining whether or not a guy of that size is breathing might be a little harder than you think. The motion of the chest and abdomen would be concealed by the thick layers of fat.

	05-12-2003 21:17									#177
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I agree, but that doesnt change my point that once he is under their control (i.e. handcuffed) it is their responsibility to ensure that he comes to no further harm. They dont need to release him in order to ensure that happens however.

	05-12-2003 22:16									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And black people in general are stronger than white people. Yes that sounds racist, but the stats don't lie- just compare body sizes of the african/american population to the american/caucasian population.

Are you vice-president of Cal's club now?

	06-12-2003 04:09									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident This guy was no weakling. And black people in general are stronger than white people. Yes that sounds racist, but the stats don't lie- just compare body sizes of the african/american population to the american/caucasian population.

I don't know about this strength issue. When I was young, I was generally stronger than all my classmates even though I was not the tallest boy in class. I am white.

	06-12-2003 04:12									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And black people in general are stronger than white people. Yes that sounds racist,

Because it is. And you are FoS. Blacks are no stronger than whites.