04-12-2003 03:34									#121
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I'm not sure why drug use would help block the throat, although some drugs can expand blood vessels, but no where near enough to close the throat. If that was the case, we'd see plenty of people dying from aphyxiation. It's much more likely layers of fat were responsible for decreasing the throat's diameter ultimately blocking off the passageway, although any expansion of blood vessels from (over) exertion or drugs would only make the passageway smaller. Also, I agree this was most likely a case of obstruction of the breathing passage in the throat, not a lung muscle malfunction because of the handcuffs as with crucifixion. But the handcuffs and lying face down would have made the apnea very severe, even deadly. Once apnea is triggered, you have to be free to move around, stand up, etc., to get some relaxation of the throat's muscles. And according to Mad Bomber, his apnea has caused him to black out completely, if that happened in a handcuffed position - bye bye... Nevertheless, people have died from being handcuffed in jails and I suspect the cause was the lung muscles failing because of the crucifixion position. I'm sure that takes a while, but with an extremely obese person, it might not take long at all when apnea is the trigger.

The only time I used PCP was by "mistake", a friend gave me a joint to hit and he had it laced with PCP. All I could do was lay down and wait for the effect to wear off. I guess people who are used to PCP can function somewhat normally, but for me, it was like I passed out but I was still conscious...

	04-12-2003 03:39									#122
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Of course the pepper spray wouldn't have helped him breath either.

	04-12-2003 03:53									#123
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Its sad that the someone died fromthis incident.........However, I am reminded of these people that mess with dangerous animals & lose their life because of it.
This incident would not of had all this pub if the Cincinnati PD had not of killed 15+ Brothers over the last 8 years.

	04-12-2003 04:23									#124
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I would hope it would get the publicity regardless. I don't know what the police can do as an alternative, but they can't keep handcuffing obese people face down on the ground. That just puts too much stress on their ability to breath, I don't even like it when they handcuff people for pro-longed periods since that has a similar effect and prison guards have done that to unruly prisoners only to come back and find them dead...

I don't fault the police for their conduct to subdue this guy, he took a swing at a cop after all. But I was literally shocked to see them standing around after they saw he had stopped breathing. Damnit, give cops CPR training for God's sake... They could have saved his life...

	04-12-2003 04:35									#125
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Some drugs cause the airway to constrict; I really can't remember if PCP is one of them, but given how doped up this guy was, he may have been on something else in addition to the coke and angel dust.

I agree, his massive weight was the biggest contributing factor to apnea; my suggestion was that the drug use may have lowered the threshold for serious consequences.

	04-12-2003 05:37									#126
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How doped up was he?

	04-12-2003 06:44									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov The city coroner just ruled the death a homicide. That doesn't mean the officers are criminally responsible for the death, just that his death was caused by other persons.

WTF???


What "other" persons attacked this guy other than the police officers?




Oh, and I had another thought -- if this guy had carried out the same actions, had the same medical problems (with lungs/heart) and was drugged, BUT was white, I think this probably would have ended the same way.

What does anyone else think??

	04-12-2003 06:46									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Of course the pepper spray wouldn't have helped him breath either.

Really?? Are you sure?


I thought this is what people with asthma take to help their respiratory problems.

	04-12-2003 06:55									#129
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Yup, it don't matter to a cop if a big guy trying to deck him is white or black. But the coroner said it isn't his place/job to determine if the homicide was justified or unjustified, i.e., criminal or not. I don't think it was criminal, but their was IMO negligence involved with the cause of death - a civil matter, not criminal... Although the coroner did give the city a possible escape from a lawsuit by effectively blaming the guy's death on his physical condition, not the manner of restraint.

	04-12-2003 06:59									#130
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun WTF??? What "other" persons attacked this guy other than the police officers?

"Homicide" simply means the killing of one person by another. It doesn't mean the killing was illiegal. In other words, the coroner is saying that what the officers did caused the death of the man, but that doesn't say anything as to the officers being criminally responsible.

If some nut is running around with a gun and is shooting at people, an officer who uses lethal force to stop the guy wouldn't be guilty of murder (since he was doing his duty to protect others), but it's still a homicide, as one person killed another.

	04-12-2003 07:00									#131
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Pepper spray to help asthma? Umm...I don't think so... But I don't have asthma so I sure don't know, I thought pepper spray was supposed to aggravate the eyes and breathing.

	04-12-2003 07:04									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov "Homicide" simply means the killing of one person by another. It doesn't mean the killing was illiegal. In other words, the coroner is saying that what the officers did caused the death of the man, but that doesn't say anything as to the officers being criminally responsible. If some nut is running around with a gun and is shooting at people, an officer who uses lethal force to stop the guy wouldn't be guilty of murder (since he was doing his duty to protect others), but it's still a homicide, as one person killed another.

Hey -- just because sometimes someone might not understand everything you try to explain the first time, doesn't mean that you have to be an egoistic smart*ss with those rolling eyes.


But now I see what you were saying.

	04-12-2003 07:07									#133
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Hey -- just because sometimes someone might not understand everything you try to explain the first time, doesn't mean that you have to be an egoistic smart*ss with those rolling eyes.

Then perhaps in the future you could pose such questions honestly without the melodramatic sarcasm you posted this one? Hmmm? I only used one smiley to your two.

	04-12-2003 07:10									#134
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You mentioned "other persons" in your post -- I was not sure in what context you were using those words.



SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sorry -- there, now that is sarcasm -- unlike the question I asked you.

	04-12-2003 07:12									#135
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Then I apologize that you weren't smart enough to realize that "other persons" meant any other person than the victim. Happy?

	04-12-2003 07:14									#136
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Boys...if you don't calm down I'll have to ask you to leave...

	04-12-2003 07:15									#137
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Never intervene in a fight between two gay men.

	04-12-2003 07:18									#139
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Not that there's anything wrong with that.

	04-12-2003 08:36									#140
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quote: They were unable to understand that this man was acting more or less as a wild animal, which has to be tamed ratheir than maimed.

What; lured with fruit and a soft bed of hay in which to gently brush his mane?

****

	04-12-2003 08:42									#141
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Many people take PCP unknowingly, as it is often used to doctor poor quality drugs.

As usual you can't even split hairs properly. With the only other active substance found in this man being cocaine (which is never "doctored" with cost and addiction contradictory PCP) - he damn well knew what he was taking. Even when weed is dusted it's cost heightened and marketed as what it is.

	04-12-2003 08:51									#142
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quote: What; lured with fruit and a soft bed of hay in which to gently brush his mane?

No, music soothes the beast...

quote: With the only other active substance found in this man being cocaine (which is never "doctored" with cost and addiction contradictory PCP) - he damn well knew what he was taking. Even when weed is dusted it's cost heightened and marketed as what it is.

The one time I was given PCP, it sure wasn't marketed to me as PCP laced pot.

	04-12-2003 08:55									#143
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Times have changed aqnd so have prices

	04-12-2003 08:58									#144
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No one answered my question with their opinions -- I think it was likely that this guy would have been killed if he would have been white considering all the health factors, influence of drugs, and his physical violence.


Do most of you guys agree?

	04-12-2003 09:03									#145
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Well, I just watched Greta and she had Dr Michael Baden on to discuss the death and he confirmed that going by the video and what the police were saying, the cause of death was aphyxia, probably from the weight of the cops pinning him to the ground and handcuffing him or "positional" aphyxia. And he questioned why CPR wasn't administered...doesn't look good...

I can't see how you can go after the cops criminally on that, but a lawsuit for sure... He also said an autopsy can't determine the cause of aphyxia in such a case...

	04-12-2003 09:10									#146
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Mr Fun, I answered your question

	04-12-2003 09:12									#147
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Chris Mathews has some guy from a police support group on claiming PCP increased this guy's strength 100's of times. So now the guy is the Hulk?

	04-12-2003 09:13									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Yup, it don't matter to a cop if a big guy trying to deck him is white or black. But the coroner said it isn't his place/job to determine if the homicide was justified or unjustified, i.e., criminal or not. I don't think it was criminal, but their was IMO negligence involved with the cause of death - a civil matter, not criminal... Although the coroner did give the city a possible escape from a lawsuit by effectively blaming the guy's death on his physical condition, not the manner of restraint.

Yeah, you did -- by the way, what the fvck was that statement you made in my other thread for??

	04-12-2003 09:18									#149
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Can you be more specific and shall we move that debate here now?

	04-12-2003 09:51									#150
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Okay, maybe I am dense but if the cops aren't supposed to use their sticks on an agressive 400lb. pcp lit, coked up guy, when are they supposed to use their sticks and what are they supposed to use them for?