08-04-2001 00:20									#1
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Hello guys,

Well the scenario bug has caught me again....I've tried so many times even to make a total lame arse one, but I always fail or loose intrest. But I got an idea going, so I want to persure it. Only one problem...da map. I've been looking around online a bit, but haven't found what I am looking for. I have a few maps in books of mine, and I could get along just with them....but I'd like to have the most info I can.
So here it is: Anything relating to Stalingrad.
Map of the city itself, surrounding areas, military positions etc. The maps I have are very basic and have a timeline of occupation, but I could use whatever you guru's can come up with.

I really would love to get a scenario done, because I've loved playing all your scenarios over the years but I've never contributed to the fun.
So, any help would be greatly appriciated.
Thanks,
-FMK



[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 07, 2001).]

	08-04-2001 06:16									#2
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Ahhh, so glad to see such intrest!

Just a progress report. I have been able to find a few more things online that will be helpful. There are just so many things going through my head with this...

Where do you guys start off when it comes to scenario? I have all kinds of ideas about terrain, graphics, and gameplay, but I don'tknow which to concentrate on first. I could draw a map, but unless I know what I am going to have as the graphic for the particular terrain, I can't really start. Well, I suppose I could draw coastline and just have all the land as grassland to startI am also stuck on the map scale. I can't decide if it should just cover the city itself, or encompass Operation Uranus which would make the map alot bigger.

A scenario is so much work, I am pulling my hair out trying to just organize it all! It is getting there ....very very very slowly.
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 07, 2001).]

	08-04-2001 07:01									#3
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I have some more detailed maps about Stalingrad battle. I scan them in just now.

	08-04-2001 07:34									#4
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I sent it to you by e-mail.

The best maps about German-Soviet war are in 6-volume book "History of The Great Fatherland War" (in Russian) but I don't have it at home.

	08-04-2001 09:52									#5
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Forget about the graphics at first, even the map... Put the terrain names and unit names and stats you want to use in the rules file and build a mini map to test if the "special" features you want to use work.
Does the AI use the units like he should, does he pillage/build improve as he should? Do the correct units appear on the "build" map, does the tech tree work etc...

Too often I have spent so much time on an idea I was sure would work only to find out there are problems in areas I should have tested before getting all the detail "fill in" work.

Second Front I did the right way...tested AI's use of coastal batteries, gliders, engineers vs bunkers, mines, transports, fuel caravan, hedgerow terrain etc. on a very small scale, then built the scenario.

The Blitz I did the wrong way and it is still giving me fits. A real nightmare because the AI won't do what he is supposed to. And I didn't pretest AI's use of aircraft in enough detail. Turns out the AI is stupid (Known fact) and has even more trouble using planes than other units (Let's stack up 45 bombers outside this RAF fighter base full of veteran units and see what happens...duhhh)

Basis advice: Spend a lot of time testing every idea first until you have a good frame and solid proof that it will work. Don't build a beautiful scenario on a bad foundation, that's too sad.

	09-04-2001 09:44									#6
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A few suggestions for CN, re: Blitz. (with appologies to FMK) 1. Do as John Ellis did in his 100 Years War - an invisible fortress on every square. 2. Two player.

FMK, what is the scope of your project - the fighting inside the city itself, or the broader Soviet double pincer that surrounded the entire 6th Army and almost cut off all the German forces in the Caucasus?

	09-04-2001 01:25									#7
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Ok fellas, I've got a little update.


I worked all yesterday untill 'bout 4 in the morning on this thing...I think I managed to confuse myself even more!

I'll try to fill you guys in, and maybe sneak in a few questions that y'all might answer. Keep in mind, that I AM COMPLETELY IGNORANT TO THIS STUFF. My questions may seem like spam, but I just have to ask them.

Okay, so without having read this last night, I went ahead to make the map. First I had to choose the proper scope of the scenario. Would it be city only, or big enough to include Operation Uranus? I decided on a comprimise. There will be Uranus, but not on the Geographic scale that I would like. But the majority of the terrain will be buildings/factories/suburbs etc.

Let me start with a few basic questions first:

Question 1
What is the best way to chage the terrain squares? It looks to me like you can either use the 'terrain editor' or just cut and paste with a bitmap?
The latter I have found to be easier, but then the graphics never show up where I think they would. Basically I'm not too familliar with the position of the pictures in the 'terrain1, 2.gif' I started by taking a terrain.gif from another scenario and manually changing the graphics. Then a little testing, and found errors. So I've been fixing those with the unit editor in game. I have no idea if that is the way to di it or not.

Question 2
How do I make a .gif image? I can only save things as jpeg, bitmap, .art and maybe another....but no .gif. Keep in mind, all I have for a tool here is the free MSPaint that came with my pc

Question 3
Where is the fortress picture located? When I put one down using the terrain editor, the original fortress shows up, but it isn't on either terrain1,2.gif? I have one that I would like to replace it with.

Question 4
Should I use the notepad techniqe or the 'unit editor' in the game for changing up the units? Again, this call for a knowledge of the units.gif layout, which I don't have. So it may be better for me to us the in-game one? I have done nothing except conceptualize about the units. If I start tochange them in the units editor, will it make up a units.gif for me automatically? (I seem to have noticed that it made a rules.txt after I changed some of the terrain values in the editor). What is the best way to start making your units? I already have graphics for them, just need to organize roles and stats and I'm ready to make 'em.


Any help would be appriciated. I'l be having a ton more question soon i bet.


Okay, here is my thoerhetical idea for the meat of the scenario:

Basically a brawl. No time to really 'develop' as in a classic Civ game.

Player would be the Germans.

Techs would given via event. This is because I haven't even memorized the tech tree for regular civ, let alone devise a new one.

Units would be available via the event-given new tech.

Numerous, historically accurate, event-given units to push the battle.
(I am thinking of the Germans only having 2-3 'HQ' type cities, so they wouldn't be able to produce #'s of units.)

No techs to the (AI) Soviets, to thwart attempts at unit disbanding. Heavily supporting them with event-given units.

Sort of a race against time to push toward the city, then into it itself. Unless objectives are met (capturing 'cities' with 1 Wonder each), then the Soviets get some kind of reward, probably units. Then at at given time, Soviets execute Uranus and will certainly wipe you out. This would be inevitable, unless you capture a particular 'key' area of the city beforehand, or the whole city or some such thing.

Because building units, happiness, development etc aren't really needed, I don't see a need to make all kinds of new city improvements. Perhaps the 'city walls' will be needed to ensure that parts of the city aren't destroyed after capture. But like aquaducts, libraries, manufacturing plants....? Don't see then need for 'em. This would be simmilar in theory to Poalris' 'Gettysburg' I guess. Only I would try to have more hitorically leading events.
Do you think 30-50 turns of just fighting would be fun? I am thinking that it may not if the majority of the units are given; part of the fun is customizing your assault force. But then again, if there are enough units, with different roles there may be enough to keep one's intrest.

I guess that is about it. It is starting to take shape in my head. I am very much enjoying this entire process. I even made my first 3 successes ever drawing units last night! That is a really hard thing to do, I consistantly fail miserably at it!

Thanks for your help guys!

[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 08, 2001).]

	09-04-2001 03:59									#8
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More Questions

6) When making units without prerequisites and osolescence, do I have to worry about knights and musteteer slots? I think I've read that they have special effects? I know that Musketeers will make your barracks obsolete right? But if the units are generated as vet or nonvet and the German's HQ cities are not directlyin the city, then it won't matter right? Any thoughts?

7) How many units are available to use? I counted 51 regular units, but in the Rules.txt there are things like 'extra test unit'. Can I make those into regular infantry units etc?(I know how to change the roles etc. with the 0's and 1's).

Also I was alble to draw one more unit. Though it isn't really a unit...

	09-04-2001 10:59									#9
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Add 2 more units to the newly-drawn pile. 2 very Stalingrad specific units indeed.

	09-04-2001 14:10									#10
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Question 1

- People use different methods. I tell how I like to do:

1.Change graphics in Terrain1.gif and Terrain2.gif (start with Civ2 original files so you know what icon is what).
2. Copy Terrain1. and 2 to Civ2 main folder (make backup copies of original ones).
3. Make map with Mapeditor.

Also I convert all graphic files to .bmp format (I use MS Paint)

	09-04-2001 14:12									#11
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Question 2

Civ understand also .bmp files.

	09-04-2001 14:14									#12
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Question 3

It is in Cities.gif file.

	09-04-2001 14:31									#13
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Question 4

I like to use Notepad. It seems more powerful... Actually I have never used Scenario Editor so I can't discuss it much. But I suppose that for beginners it is the best way to start. You can change most of things and Units.gif and Rules.txt are combined there.

For making new graphics Scenario Editor is not good because it can work only with existing civ graphic files. Using it you can copy unit drawings from one units.gif to another but can't add your own graphic. Better to do it with Paint program.

You can do this way:

1. Take existing units.gif (convert to bmp)
2. Replace unit pictures with Paint
3. Change unit attributes in Unit Editor (You see there unit picture and recognize your units) - it makes changes to Rules.txt

There are some very good Scenario making guides around. Check them out.

	09-04-2001 15:09									#14
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Question 6

Better if units which are in musketeers and kinght slots are unbuildable (prerequisities no,no). They make certain other units obsolete (regardless of techs) - read more detailed description from Advanced Scenario Making Guide (was it the right name?). I think that you can get it from Apolyton downloads.

	09-04-2001 15:15									#15
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Question 7

You can use all these Extra units. Maximum number of units is 62 in MGE (and FW).

	10-04-2001 09:18									#16
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Yeah MARKO!!!

Thank you so much dude. Those really help me.

quote: Originally posted by Marko on 04-09-2001 05:31 AM You can do this way: 1. Take existing units.gif (convert to bmp) 2. Replace unit pictures with Paint 3. Change unit attributes in Unit Editor (You see there unit picture and recognize your units) - it makes changes to Rules.txt

Yeah man, this is pretty much what I ended up doing. Haven't gone into the game to rename yet, because I haven't decided on unit values yet. But I have all the unit graphics in there ready to go!

quote: There are some very good Scenario making guides around. Check them out.

The only ones I've seen are at http://sleague.apolyton.net/ and they are very job-specific help topics. I'm looking for more of a step by step beginner version that will help me understand what is going on, not just what file to change.


Question 8

Let's say I want NO units to be able to be built.
Should the prereq and obsl be nil,nil? Or should it be no, nil? I want no prereq's and no obsolescence. I want to give the units via events and keep them there.

Question 9

Can the AI disband units that it does not have the tech to build?
Meaning, if I give the AI a ton of free 'NON' units that it can't build, it won't get rid of them, right?


Question 10

If units do not need corresponding techs (except the tech to keep national units on their respective side) then I can use the rest of the technologies to enhance the gameplay by intertwining them with events to make things more deep?

I'm thinking like this:

If
Unitkilled
unit=SomethingSpecial
attacker=Germans
defender=Soviets
then
givetech
tech=SomethingSpecialHappened
justonce

and later on...

If
recieved tech
tech=SomethingSpecialHappened
then
createunits


This could allow me to develop a very historical battle correct?

I know those weren't correct events and triggers, but you get the idea.


Question 11

How does one come to deciding on attack and defense stats?
How do I keep the numbers relative?

For instance: I need to have Soviet units to be overpoweringly strong on the defensive, but breakable. I want the German palyer to have to slam lots of units into the city, but not too many.
Is it just trial and error with minibattles, as Nemo suggested, to see if the right things are happening?

Question 12

Unit Cost. I've heard that this effects the AI's decision to attack a particular unit or not. If my units are free via event, should I give them cost values or not? It would be a waste of time if it was not nessicary, but if I can manipulate the way the AI will attack I will try to do so.

Okay, that's it ofr now. Again, thanks for all the help guys!
FMK

	10-04-2001 06:37									#17
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Hello again fellas,


Went in today and gave all the units there names. Adjusted their sheilds to fit just right. Made some assorted fixes here and there. Still haven't decided on stats for them though. I have decided on abilities, but I don't know where to start as far as fp, hp at, df etc.

Got the first look at some units grouped together out in the field. They sure look snazzy. I'm sure allthe units will look very familliar to you guys.

A few more Questions


13) Is there a way to have no shield for some units?

14) I am going to have to alot 1 tech for each Civ that needs a government right? Can I use the other gov techs (unneeded such as Monarchy) for other things? I would do this by removing the original tech's category of 'social' correct, and move it to something else?


Okay, thats all for now.
FMK
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 09, 2001).]

	10-04-2001 06:58									#18
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Questions 8-9

Use for this case Prereq=no and obsl=nil. Then AI uses given unit and don't disband it.
But even better is to use unreachable tech (which nobody has) as Prereq. Then units appear in Civilopedia (with Prereq=no they don't).

Question 10

Go on, it sounds great!

Question 11

There is Koybashi spreadsheet too. Ask him. It is Excel program which simulates 100s of battles.

Question 12

Cost influences AI only when it uses missiles. But don't forget to check unit roles.

	10-04-2001 10:49									#19
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Major progress gentlemen!

I have finished with all of the units that I have ideas for so far. They have their cost (which I sorta remebered was relative for missile use, which is exactly what I want it to be ), their attacks, defense, hitpoints and firepower levels. They have their roles set as well. I am now debating the actual gameplay (with events in mind) for the rest of the units. I'd like to get some very interesting pop ups etc when things happen. I'm going to have to try and draw the weirdest things.....

Marko, Thank you so much for your interest and help. Now, what is this about the Civlopedia? I'd love to have the units in there to save an exhaustive readme. So I just make the prereq=no and obslescence=no? Then I would have to tie the units into their particular tech. Sounds interesting, I'll have to think about it more to understand it.

So I have made a Alpha-test. It is the attempted breakthrough into the southern suburbs of the city. Merely a test to get a feel for the unit values etc. Still a long road ahead, and there is alot of work to do just to be able to build a more encompassing test.

Now I need sleep.

	11-04-2001 09:39									#20
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Question 15

How does one say Flamethrower in German?

Flamwerfer? I am pretty sure Flammenwerfers is the correct plural usage, but I am not sure of the singular.


Thats all for now. Great ideas are pouring in and things are comming along well
[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 11, 2001).]

	11-04-2001 11:21									#21
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I don't know if it will help but Swedish is usually rather simmilar to German and in Swedish it is called "Eldkastare".
Then again some words are completely different, most words are simmilar though...

	12-04-2001 01:17									#22
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You have messed with numeration of questions

13) You can draw unit this way that it shadows the shield.

14) Yes. Tech's category is connected only with its icon graphic, nothing else.

Units which prerequisite=no don't appear in Civilopedia. Same about techs. You can design an unreachable tech and make it prereq for all units. Check only that any civ doesn't have this tech from start. This way nobody can build these units but they are in civilopedia.
Also don't forget to make science rate VERY slow - so nobody DISCOVER techs which you want to give by events. Also all civ's must be able to research Future technologies - otherways the game crash.

	12-04-2001 09:45									#25
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He he, 'Flammenwefers' and 'Flammenwerfers'.... Oh, you crazy Germans!

Thank you, BeBro

quote: Originally posted by BeBro on 04-11-2001 06:36 PM Hmm, havenīt experimented with such high numbers, but perhaps you start with 500 or even higher?

I looked via the in-game editor, and found the numers allowable were 1-10, 10 being the slowest rate. Perhaps a larger # than 10 can be inserted via the 'notepad' method? I've never done this.

quote: Unreachable techs: a tech that has no/no as prerequisites canīt be researched, so all units that would be available trough this tech canīt ever be built in the game. But you can make a "normal" tech (letīs say tech X) and relate some units Y and Z to it. Give tech X to a civ via cheat menu, then change its prerequisites to no/no. Result: the civ that has received tech X can build units Y and Z, all other civs canīt, because they are not able to research the tech

That would work under normal cercumstances, but I am thinking of having all units be given( both player's and AI's) via "as close to historical as will allow" events.

What I need is to have units viewable in civlopedia, unbuildable, devided into 3 Civs.


Maybe like this?

I. 'Battle o' Stalingrad tech'

A. Germany Theme Tech
i. tech for unit
ii. Tech for unit
iii. etc...

B. Soviet Theme Tech
i. tech for unit
ii. tech for unit
iii. etc...

C. Soviet ThemeII Tech (alternate Sov. Civ)
i. you get the point...


This is very confusing for an actual first timer. I've never looked this deep into the game of Civ before: Mind Officialy Blown.

I had a minor let down today as well. One snazzy idea i read about in the Civ2 Creation forums didn't work. Damn, it was a good idea too.


[This message has been edited by Field Marshal Klesh (edited April 12, 2001).]

	12-04-2001 16:06									#27
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FMK, you can slow down the science rate via the "Tech Paradigm" settings (via Cheat Menu > Scenario parameters, or directly in the rules.txt).

The standard entry for the tech paradigm is 10, any higher number means a slower rate, and you can enter very high numbers here easily (as said, Iīm not sure what the highest allowed entry is). A tech paradigm of 20 means that research is as half as fast compared to the standard settings. I a big scn with lots of cities and many turns this can be still too fast. I experimented with 30 or 40 in my scns, but that would probably not enough for your scn (if Future tech is the only available tech, and should not be reached within the game), so I think you need much higher numbers

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	13-04-2001 04:58									#29
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Yes you can rename Future Techs to whatever you want.

You will get some feel about science rate values when you have finished your map and sat up civilizations. Then change the rate in Cheat menu and look how fast the science is in different nations.

	13-04-2001 08:54									#30
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Ran into some trouble today. Apparently some of my terrain graphics were protruding beyond the limits, resulting in wierd graphics effects. Spending time repairing the situation before I forget. Big thanks to WarVoid for showing me what's up.

Hoping to get alot done this weekend, including getting some largerscale test battles simulating all kinds of things. Steady as she goes.