20-12-2003 21:05									#331
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Then one asks themsleves about the rest iof the states beyond Virginia and maryland. Sorry, but the inequality in spending does not match- how many major military installations are in California? The resulst are simple, and once you look at both sets of numbers it is clear-the northern states are richer-they pay out more in Federal taxes period and this money goes to where the need is, and interestingly, the poor states is where the need is. My problem is tno that this system exists, but that ungratefull southeners, who recieve very large benefits from the redistribution of national wealth act as if they were loosing out in the system. If the south wants to proetcts its "values", fine, do it. Just don;'t expect the money you get from the richer states.

I'm not disagreeing with you on your main point, but if you look at your figures Virginia's windfall from the Federal government is more than double that of any other state. I was merely pointing out that there is a good reason why Virginia has such an exceptionally large bonus from the Federal government, and it's not because Virginia has an extraordinarily large population of people on the dole. I only mentioned four major Federal employers in VA, there are many others, particularily when you consider that the seat of the US government has long outgrown the confines of the District of Columbia and land is less expensive in Virginia than Maryland. Many of the headquarter facilities or federal Departments have annexes in Virginia. Also the Norfolk Navy Yards is the US Navy's primary shipbuilding and refitting facility, and let's face it building and refitting ships is a whopping expense item. California has 5 times the population of Virginia, so even if California had about the same number of military and civilian federal employment the effect of this income would be relatively diluted.

	20-12-2003 21:19									#332
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I don't mind your point, but that "ungrateul Southeners" is rather condecending. Why should we be grateful? Just look back through this thread for what the northern opinion of the South is. For the most part it is ill-informed and totally incorrect...using decades old stereotypes to draw conclusions for today.

And southeners have shown more understanding of the north and west?

quote: Your point on redistribution of wealth is well taken. The so called "rich northern states" have more population and therefore control more congressional votes. Maybe you guys shouldelect someone different.

This ignores the senate, that fine institution where population matters not, and one well used by smaller states to levergae their interests (which is the point of the senate). 2, the south is growing rapidly, as is thee west.

	20-12-2003 21:47									#333
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO We're trying...We're trying. I don't mind your point, but that "ungrateul Southeners" is rather condecending. Why should we be grateful? Just look back through this thread for what the northern opinion of the South is. For the most part it is ill-informed and totally incorrect...using decades old stereotypes to draw conclusions for today. Your point on redistribution of wealth is well taken. The so called "rich northern states" have more population and therefore control more congressional votes. Maybe you guys shouldelect someone different.

Two points:
(1) Control of the legislature depends not so much on the total number of votes a region has, but more so on the possession of leadership positions on the floor and in the committees. The South has a tradition of electing its Representatives and Senators for life, thus acquiring the lion's share of senority dependent positions. If the non-Southern parts of the nation are to acquire the ability to control the House and Senate they will have to do just the opposite of what you suggested; they will have to keep electing the same guys over and over again until they have a larger number of senior people.

(2) Southerners have every reason to be grateful to the Union. Billy Yank died for Johnny Reb's sins.

	20-12-2003 22:02									#334
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO We're trying...We're trying. I don't mind your point, but that "ungrateul Southeners" is rather condecending. Why should we be grateful? Just look back through this thread for what the northern opinion of the South is. For the most part it is ill-informed and totally incorrect...using decades old stereotypes to draw conclusions for today.

You mean you don't like the fact that my opinion is based on facts and scholarly historical research by other historians?

	21-12-2003 01:47									#335
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Actually the South seems to control the politics of the United States. If they back the Democrat party, the Democrat party runs the United States. If they back the Republican Party, the Republican Party runs the United States. Both parties know this. This is why the Democrats have elected only Southern Democrats to the presidency since Kennedy. This time around it does not seem that they will nominate a Southern Democrat and for this reason they are certain to lose against a Southern Republican.

	21-12-2003 02:13									#336
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Mr. Fun,

You are making a big assupmption that all Southern understanding of the Civil War is in line with you"Lost Cause" idea. I know alot of people, like myself, that consider slavery to ba a single issue in a larger issue of states rights. However, not a single person I know believes in anything th Klu Kluz Klan pontificates.

The simple fact is, and any historigraphical study shows, that this fixation that slavery was the end all root cause of the the Civil War is a very recent thing, somehting that is only about 20 years old. And it is also supported by sensationalist history writers rather than recognized historians and professors, nor economists. Instisting slavery is the only end all cause of the Civill War is revisionism at its worst.

States rights issues that were debated more often and for longer times than slavery; interstate tax, railroad subsitidies, eminent domain, and nullification.

@Economic Argument:
Alot of the military bases are located in the South because of the big build up in facilities during and immediatly after WWII. Land was cheap, weather is better, and we had the space for sprowling bases like Bragg. It wasn't all pork, alot of it was practical. In the fifties and sixities alot of base constructon moved West for the same reason.

-Pat

	21-12-2003 04:31									#337
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Patroklos, but the question you have to ask yourself is why States Rights Was so Important to the South.

	21-12-2003 06:44									#338
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Anyway, why in heavens name would the south seceed at this time?

	21-12-2003 07:29									#339
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"Anyway, why in heavens name would the south seceed at this time?"

Abortion.

	21-12-2003 07:31									#340
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The South wouldn't leave over that.

	21-12-2003 07:31									#341
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I don't see it happening.

	21-12-2003 07:45									#342
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Without Yankees paying for welfare so many women would be unable to make ends meet if they had babies that the number of abortions would go up, not down. Even worse, many families that had kids would be forced to sell the little ones to medical experimenters.

	21-12-2003 07:56									#343
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Anyway, why in heavens name would the south seceed at this time?

Beats me. We run the place now.

	21-12-2003 10:11									#344
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How many presidents have been southern since re-unification?

At any rate, go ahead and secede. You'll find out it's not as easy as it looks.