19-12-2003 07:00									#271
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara On racism, I clearly have more perspective than you. A) I worked for anti-racist groups for over a decade, B) a majority of my family is Black, and I can see how they are treated differently, C) I lived in a neighborhood where Black people were shot at and firebombed by white racists, D) I lived in a Black neighborhood where the cops would randomly harrass everyone but me (being the only white person, E) I notice how I get treated differently when I'm alone or with Black or Hispanic folks, F) I watch my friends get followed in stores, G) I listen to people tell me about crap that happens to them.

Whoa. Che...man...

You know its not like that everywhere I know, but still...wow. You win that side of the perspective battle for sure.

	19-12-2003 07:31									#272
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara On racism, I clearly have more perspective than you. A) I worked for anti-racist groups for over a decade, B) a majority of my family is Black, and I can see how they are treated differently, C) I lived in a neighborhood where Black people were shot at and firebombed by white racists, D) I lived in a Black neighborhood where the cops would randomly harrass everyone but me (being the only white person, E) I notice how I get treated differently when I'm alone or with Black or Hispanic folks, F) I watch my friends get followed in stores, G) I listen to people tell me about crap that happens to them.

You're not following the conventional outline format using Roman numerals, letters and so on.

	19-12-2003 07:34									#273
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Che

A) Good for you for working for anti-racist gorups, I wouldn't mind a name though. My church is an anti-racist group and I have been working for them for years but don't claim some god like perspective because of it. And if you group is like some I know, perspective is the last thing they offer.
B)If the majority of your family is black than how do you claim to have any perspective on how a mostly white family sees things.
C)I live in a neighboorhood where white kids are beaten regularly by black gangs, and visa versa. I attest this to class more than anything else, but I could start thinking in terms of only race like you and call it racist.
D) Doubtful you are the only one, and though I can't say your are wrong on this becasue I don't live there, police brutality is the most overexagerated thing. I would attest that to class as well. I might even be inclined to get you an article on that after exams are over.
E) I have friends get followed in stores too. I attest it to them bieng obnoxious and looking like hoodlums, but maybe it is becasue the security is racist against white people. Security follow people, man don't they no they are not supposed to be taking their job seriously. Maybe you are just parinoid.
D) You listen to people, a good trait, but from you list above aparrently it is mostly black people, so where is the perspective?

As far as you list, all that shows is the only perspective you have is that of the oppressed blackman squarely under the toe of the white jackboot. Granted my perspective is only from the middleclass military background, but I bet I meet a larger variety of people doing my job than you ever will. Tony, a 31 year old black LDO from Atlanta thinks your full of it, and JP, a 32 year old ENS from Dallas Texas (he is Hispanic) thinks we are both full of it. But then again, I don't claim to have a greater perspective than you, just a different one.

BTW, sence you consider race to be paramount it wouldn't suprise me if you saw what you wanted in the events of your everyday life. You project racism onto things that could easily be from something else. I do not see racism in everything, but then again I am predisposed not to because I do not consider it to be such an overriding factor. So in all reality we are both projecting what we believe, and the truth is probobly somewhere in the middle. But that is just my perspective

-Pat

Last edited by Patroklos on 19-12-2003 at 07:57

	19-12-2003 07:55									#274
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Whoa. Che...man... You know its not like that everywhere I know, but still...wow. You win that side of the perspective battle for sure.

I left stuff out too. I try not to bring it up, cuz I don't want to seem like I'm trying to swing my cheney around. I dunno. I honestly don't think my perspective has done much but let me see glimpses of other sides. Ultimately, we can never walk a mile in another man's shoes.

Personal experience is a valid starting point, but I don't think it should stand in place of the argument. What I'm trying to say is, I'm not right because I have the perspective. I think there's a correlation. If I didn't have the perspective, I might not be as willing to learn or overcome the racism I learned growing up (not from my folks but just the crap that kids learn). If I wasn't willing to learn, I probably would never have gained perspective.

A friend once said to me, "You love us Black people." My smartass self was like, "No I don't. I hate you just as much as I hate white people."

Most of us can live our whole lives without having to deal with or experience oppression. We're lucky, priveleged that way. If we have friends of another race, we might see one or two things that happen to them, and "I can't believe what that ******* said/did" etc. It seems like a few bad apples. You can intersect in a major way with people of other groups, and you begin to get a sense of what they have to put up with, even from well-meaning people who are patronizing as ****.

And then you can live the life, which we'll never be able to do. We don't have to put up with the little slights, the frequent indignities, the cluelessness of our coworkers, friends, etc., and keep our cool. I couldn't do it. I barely keep my temper when **** happens to Bunnygrrl, and it's really only time and distance that has kept me from seperating a few jerks from their faces.

	19-12-2003 07:56									#275
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You're not following the conventional outline format using Roman numerals, letters and so on.

It wasn't an outline, nor do I pretend to be an academic. You're gonna have to try hard than that, Fun.

	19-12-2003 07:59									#276
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I am not to fond of United States of America, but not exactly interested for the country to split up into smaller countries with each their own nukes.

-mellian

	19-12-2003 08:00									#277
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Messed that up edit is above.

	19-12-2003 08:06									#278
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO You know its not like that everywhere

Yes I do. It's like a bad smell. At first, you can't stand it. It really iritates you and you comment on it. After a while though, you don't notice it anymore. It's become part of the normal background, and you litterally can no longer smell it.

Racism is kinda like that. Southerners have a harder time seeing their own racism, because it's part of the background. It's as normal as air. The same goes for the North. But because it's different in both places, each region can see the racism in the other quite clearly. I try not to bash the South, but it's that whole denial thing.

The truth is, the South has come a lot further than Northerns give it credit for. It's come much farther than the North in addressing its racism. But it also had a lot further to go, and so it really isn't much better than the North, but it is a little.

	19-12-2003 08:12									#279
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I am now totally bored by this thread. Ming close it and redirect people to my "non-serious" thread.

	19-12-2003 08:14									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos BTW, sence you consider race to be paramount . . . -Pat

You're making an asumption here. I consider race to be paramount when it comes to the majority of oppression that minorities as a whole face. However, I consider class to be paramount. But class and race don't cancel each other out. They combine. The Black working class gets it worse the the white worknig class. Hell, I'll go further. Class oppression is the reason for race oppression. If workers are divided by race, it makes them that much easier to exploit. Studies have shown that where race oppression is greatest, the class divide is also greatest. But this doesn't take away from oppression on account of race, especially since we live in a country that tries is damdest to pretend class doesn't exist.

	19-12-2003 08:22									#281
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Spoken like a true commie, have you been awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union yet?

-Pat

	19-12-2003 08:45									#282
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quote: Originally posted by TCO I am now totally bored by this thread. Ming close it and redirect people to my "non-serious" thread.

Who died and made you Queen of Obnoxiousness.

	19-12-2003 09:22									#283
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes I do. It's like a bad smell. At first, you can't stand it. It really iritates you and you comment on it. After a while though, you don't notice it anymore. It's become part of the normal background, and you litterally can no longer smell it. Racism is kinda like that. Southerners have a harder time seeing their own racism, because it's part of the background. It's as normal as air. The same goes for the North. But because it's different in both places, each region can see the racism in the other quite clearly. I try not to bash the South, but it's that whole denial thing. The truth is, the South has come a lot further than Northerns give it credit for. It's come much farther than the North in addressing its racism. But it also had a lot further to go, and so it really isn't much better than the North, but it is a little.

I believe that many more whites in the South listened to Dr. King than whites in the north. Far more in the South do I see Southerners judging a man by the content of his character than the color of his skin than I see that in the north. Maybe it was collective guilt...maybe they just saw the problem more clearly. In any event, I agree...the South now may have less of a racial problem then the north.

However, to stay on the original thread topic, the time is fast approaching for an independent South. Value systems between the north and South are widening to gulfs not seen since the War of northern Aggression (Civil War to you Yankees).

	19-12-2003 09:26									#284
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Yeah but our economic dependancy on each other has never been better. Basically, if any one state were remomeved from the country, the market would crash. That is one reason why Yugolsavia is had such a hard tim after the breakup, no one state had a complete infrustructure.

-Pat

	19-12-2003 09:30									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Yeah but our economic dependancy on each other has never been better. Basically, if any one state were remomeved from the country, the market would crash. That is one reason why Yugolsavia is had such a hard tim after the breakup, no one state had a complete infrustructure. -Pat

Well I didn't say become enemies. We could easily complete the necessary treaties to be in effect at the time the new Nation kicks off. In fact, some differences in market laws could stimulate competetion and actually spur economic growth. We are looking for a friendly and peaceful seperation.

	19-12-2003 09:46									#286
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The South. There was a lynching of a black kid who was dating the white sheriff's daughter ni a small Florida town just recently.

If we're going to compare things to the bad old days, can we get the rest of the story concerning the murder investigation? These things aren't taken as lightly here as they used to be.

	19-12-2003 09:53									#287
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Value systems between the north and South are widening to gulfs not seen since the War of northern Aggression (Civil War to you Yankees).

Care to elaborate on that statement?

	19-12-2003 09:59									#288
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I believe that many more whites in the South listened to Dr. King than whites in the north. Far more in the South do I see Southerners judging a man by the content of his character than the color of his skin than I see that in the north. Maybe it was collective guilt...maybe they just saw the problem more clearly. In any event, I agree...the South now may have less of a racial problem then the north.

WHAT?? During the Civil Rights movement there was mass resistance by white Southerners against white and black activists.


As for today's race relations, it's pathetic how we have not come to terms with its historical legacy -- both in the North, and in the South.

	19-12-2003 10:01									#289
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Value systems between the north and South are widening to gulfs not seen since the War of northern Aggression (Civil War to you Yankees).

This is one example of the political agenda that emerged with the "Lost Cause" mythology during and after Reconstruction -- they favor a name of the war that distorts its history.


Many of us Northerners hate you calling the Civil War "War of Northern Aggression" just as you would hate it if I called it the "War of Southern Stupidity."

Both names are grossly unfair.

	19-12-2003 10:03									#290
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun WHAT?? During the Civil Rights movement there was mass resistance by white Southerners against white and black activists.

Dude, That was 40 years ago now. Please catch up. The South has far far outstripped your ideas of it. This type of thinking is what perpetuates the thought train that has produced most of your posts in this thread. You simply don't know the South as post after post shows.

Come live here for a few years...you will be amazed.

	19-12-2003 10:08									#291
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So then why were you talking about "listening to Martin Luther King Jr.?"

	19-12-2003 10:11									#292
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So then why were you talking about "listening to Martin Luther King Jr.?"

King's statements were not for the moment. They were obviously some of the more profound and unifying statements of the 20th century.

	19-12-2003 10:15									#293
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Ok.

But as far as I'm concerned, as long as people cling to the sentimental, romantic "Lost Cause" mythology, we will not get very far in race relations -- North or South, since a number of white Northerners have been duped by this "Lost Cause" nonsense as well.

	19-12-2003 10:15									#294
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no

	19-12-2003 10:18									#295
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Ok. But as far as I'm concerned, as long as people cling to the sentimental, romantic "Lost Cause" mythology, we will not get very far in race relations -- North or South, since a number of white Northerners have been duped by this "Lost Cause" nonsense as well.

I believe that you are the only one clinging to the "Lost Cause" nonsense. It is nothing more that carpetbagger history anyway.

	19-12-2003 10:20									#296
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Wrong again.

You can't distort the history of the Civil War and Reconstruction by glorifying the North's motives and methods anymore than you should by glorifying the South's motives and methods.


But apparently, Southerners take their glorification of butchered history as objective, scholarly history.

	19-12-2003 10:22									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove A libertarian dictatorship? I'm not quite sure how to classify that. Would it be anarcho-fascism? Wasn't that a Giancarlo fantasy at one time? Or was it coined by EVC? You've been hanging around with the wrong crowd DF. You're really really close to the edge now. You know what comes next don't you? Yep. You come out of the closet.

anarcho-fascism

	19-12-2003 10:23									#298
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quote: Originally posted by GePap As I have said half a dozen tmies, good riddens! We don;t need those poor states sucking of the fruits of blue state labor! Off with them!

Okay!

quote: Population - 1993 data, in thousands Gross Domestic Product -1990 data, in millions of U.S. Dollars Regions of the U.S. Regions of the U.S. Census Bureau Regions Population Census Bureau Regions GDP Northeast 51,355 Midwest 61,070 South 89,438 West 58,044 Census Bureau Regions GDP Northeast 1,247,080 Midwest 1,264,262 South 1,751,759 West 1,235,890

Another northern misconception. So many...so little time...

	19-12-2003 10:28									#299
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Wrong again. You can't distort the history of the Civil War and Reconstruction by glorifying the North's motives and methods anymore than you should by glorifying the South's motives and methods. But apparently, Southerners take their glorification of butchered history as objective, scholarly history.

Where have I glorified the South's methods? Of course I will definately glorify the underlying motive...Strict interpretation of the United States Constitution. The centralizing of the Federal Government and the stripping of the States power was never intended by the founding fathers. Your education is sooo based on the "victors write the history books" mentality. I am old enough to remember stories being told by aunts and uncles whose parents lived through it. They were there...no theories...no revisionist Yankee histories...They were there.

	19-12-2003 10:30									#300
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quote: And btw, slavery wasnt legal, it just wasnt illegal. Maybe people forgot to read the constitution since it states that all men are created equal. That was a real bugger to plantation owners, and the southern business class. So to get around it, the southern states said that slaves arnt people, they are property. But then to get more representation in congress, they counted each slave as 3/5th of a person. What a sham.

Umm... "All men are created equal" was said in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence, FYI, has no legal mandate