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Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:12
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AP: Dean had his OWN secret energy group. Got spare money?

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nat...ean-Energy.html

quote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean, who has criticized the Bush administration for refusing to release the deliberations of its energy policy task force, as governor of Vermont convened a similar panel that met in secret and angered state lawmakers.

Dean's group held one public hearing and after the fact volunteered the names of industry executives and liberal advocates it consulted in private, but Dean refused to open the task force's private deliberations.

In 1999, he offered the same argument the administration uses today for keeping deliberations of a policy task force secret.

``The governor needs to receive advice from time to time in closed session. As every person in government knows, sometimes you get more open discussion when it's not public,'' Dean was quoted as saying.


His own dispute over the secrecy of the task force that devised a policy for restructuring Vermont's nearly bankrupt electric utilities has escaped national attention, even as he has attacked a similar arrangement used by President Bush.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Dean defended his recent criticism of Vice President **** Cheney's task force and his demand that the administration release its private energy deliberations.

Dean said his group developed better policy in a bipartisan manner, seeking advice not just from energy executives but environmentalists and advocates for the poor. He said his task force was more open because it held a public hearing and divulged afterward the names of people it consulted even though deliberations were held in secret.

The Vermont task force ``is not exactly the Cheney thing,'' Dean said. ``We had a much more open process than Cheney's process. We named the people we sought advice from in our final report.''

Dean said he still believes it was necessary to keep his task force's deliberations secret, especially because the group was reviewing proprietary financial data from Vermont utilities. ``Some advice does have to be given in private, but I don't mind letting people know who gave that advice,'' he said.

An expert in political rhetoric said it was risky for Dean to attack Bush and Cheney on an issue where he was vulnerable.

``In general, what is good for the vice president should be good for the governor. A candidate who attacks on grounds he is vulnerable is foolish,'' said Kathleen Hall Jamieson, a University of Pennsylvania professor who helps run a Web site that compares presidential candidates' rhetoric with the facts.


Dean's campaign said it was ``laughable'' to equate the two panels.

``Governor Dean confronted and averted an energy crisis that would have had disastrous consequences for the citizens of Vermont by bringing together a bipartisan and ideologically diverse working group that solved the problem,'' spokesman Jay Carson said Sunday.

``**** Cheney put together a group of his corporate cronies and partisan political contributors, and they gave themselves billions and disguised it as a national energy policy.''

In September, Dean argued that the task force Cheney assembled in 2001 and the Bush energy policy that were unduly influenced by Bush family friend and Enron energy chief Kenneth Lay. He demanded that records of its deliberations be made public.

``The administration should also level with the American people about just how much influence Ken Lay and his industry buddies had over the development of the president's energy policy by releasing notes on the deliberations of Vice President Cheney's energy task force,'' Dean said on Sept. 15.

In 1998, Dean's Vermont task force met in secret to write a plan for revamping state electricity markets that would slow rising consumer costs and relieve utilities of a money-losing deal with a Canadian power company, Hydro Quebec.

The task force's work resulted in the Dean administration and state utility regulators advocating that Vermont have the first utility in the country to meet energy efficiency standards.

It also freed the state's utilities from burdensome costs from a long-term deal with Hydro Quebec that had left them near bankruptcy by passing as much as 90 percent of those costs to consumers. Utility shareholders also suffered some losses.

The parallels between the Cheney and Dean task forces are many.

Both declined to open their deliberations, even under pressure from legislators. Both received input from the energy industry in private meetings, and released the names of task force members publicly.

Dean's group volunteered the names of those it consulted with in its final report. While Cheney has refused to formally give a list to Congress to preserve the White House's right to private advice, known as executive privilege, his aides have divulged to reporters the names of many of those from whom the task force sought advice.

The Bush-Cheney campaign and Republican Party received millions in donations from energy interests in the election before its task force was created.

Dean's Vermont re-election campaign received only small contributions from energy executives, but a political action committee created as he prepared to run for president collected $19,000, or nearly a fifth of its first $110,000, from donors tied to Vermont's electric utilities.

One co-chairman of Dean's task force, William Gilbert, was a Republican lawyer who had done work for state utilities. At the time, Gilbert also served on the board of Vermont Gas Systems, a subsidiary of Hydro Quebec.

Many state legislators, including Dean's fellow Democrats, were angered that the task force met secretly.

``It taints the whole report,'' Democratic state Rep. Al Stevens told the AP in 1999. ``I'd have more faith in that report if the discussions had been open.''

Elizabeth Bankowski, a Democrat who co-chaired the task force with Gilbert, told the legislature that the secrecy requirement ``was decided in advance by the governor's office and the governor's lawyer.''


Very interesting .

DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:24
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quote:
``The governor needs to receive advice from time to time in closed session. As every person in government knows, sometimes you get more open discussion when it's not public,'' Dean was quoted as saying.
Isn't that almost exactly what the Bush team said?

MrFun is offline MrFun
King
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Nov 2000
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:31 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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Man -- Dean is just looking to lose the campaign, isn't he?

Verto is offline Verto

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Mar 2002
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:33
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Dean never had a chance anyway. But I do like to see him adding more nails to his coffin, just in case.

Ming is offline Ming
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Jan 1970
time: 23:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:34 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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While there are indeed some differences here... you would think that Dean would check his "own house" before attacking Bush on a similar issue...

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 21:58
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Ming, this must be one of the dumbest political gambles I've ever seen a candidate make. Critisize your opponent for doing EXACTLY what you did! Yikes!

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:01 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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You can hear his advice people now.... "oh, don't worry, it's not the same thing... both situations are so totally different... no problem on this one... go for it"



What a bunch of morons...

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Capitalist
Mar 1999
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:05
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To me, the big gaffe that Dean made this week concerns how he doesn't care if OBL has a trial under US law or World Court law. New York City residents aren't the biggest proponent of the death penalty, but even they will make an exception to OBL - and we know how the rest of the country thinks.

He also said that he isn't going to prejudge OBL's guilt or innocence before any potential verdict, regardless of the fact that OBL has repeatedly taken credit (on tape, nonetheless) for the attacks. Of course, he has issued a release "clarifying" his position.



This guys remarks makes Dan Quayle seem an elder statesman.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...dean.bin.laden/

JohnT is offline JohnT

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Mar 1999
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:07
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John Kerry sums up the reaction perfectly:

quote:
"You don't have to listen too carefully to hear the sound of champagne corks popping in Karl Rove's office."

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:07
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*points at sig*



Gosh, I almost pity the Democrats.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:10
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Got spare money?

quote:
"You don't have to listen too carefully to hear the sound of champagne corks popping in Karl Rove's office."


I love John Kerry

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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Oct 1999
time: 21:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:21
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Dean's on his way to being another McGovern, but at least George was well-intentioned and actually a fairly nice guy, even if he was a joke as a national politician.

Dean just seems like more and more of a dumbass, but with an extra layer of greasiness that McGovern never had.

At the rate things are going, if Dean gets nominated, I expect he'll do about as well as McGovern.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
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Jun 2000
time: 00:32
  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:28 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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The difference, of cuorse, is that Dean's task force was bipartisan and came up with a strategy that saved Vermont's energy, while Cheney's was a bunch of Republican lobbyists, who handed the Veep a wishlist. And Dean voluntarily released the names of the people on the task force.

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:29 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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He would have to do better than McGovern... too many people hate Bush. They will vote for whoever the Dems put up... even if it was Mickey Mouse..

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:31 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I don't know. There are a lot of Dean supporters who are mad at the Dems too. If Dean goes down to dirty tricks, they may boycott the Dems in the general elcetion.

Ming is offline Ming
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:36 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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If Dean goes down... it will probably be more due to his mistakes than dirty tricks... but I hope the standard Dean supporters won't be able to tell the difference if he doesn't get the nod

MichaeltheGreat is offline MichaeltheGreat
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ming
He would have to do better than McGovern... too many people hate Bush. They will vote for whoever the Dems put up... even if it was Mickey Mouse..


Yeah, there are a lot of Bush-haters, but not necessarily many statewide majorities, particularly if basic issues like the economy and national security favor Bush at the time of the general election. Dean would put up decent popular vote numbers regardless, but he may get skinned alive in the electoral vote.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 23:56 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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I wonder if that would be enough to get the EC abolished.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 29-12-2003 23:59
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Yeah, right. Another Dukakis like result (decent popular vote, but pitiful electoral vote) won't be able to get rid of the EC.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I wonder if that would be enough to get the EC abolished.

As long as the elected people are in charge of the electoral system, I don't see any change coming unless there is a huge popular pressure. And since all the voters of the winning side (who should be at least a comfortable minority) will explain how great the EC is, I doubt a real popular pressure will ever happen.

Whoha is offline Whoha
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Dec 2001
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:28
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not... yet... damnit... don't... self... destruct...

I think changing the EC would require a constitutional convention, and that is totally out of the hands of the federal government, its a state issue.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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Nov 2000
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Put an end to popups!

I think, in the end, I may withdraw my support of Dean.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:32
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quote:
I think changing the EC would require a constitutional convention, and that is totally out of the hands of the federal government, its a state issue.


Not entirely. If they go the Amendment route, then the federal government is involved. And if it's a Constitutional Convention, I think someone (the SCOTUS) would have to decide if that's allowed .

quote:
I think, in the end, I may withdraw my support of Dean.


Good for you. Back Kerry .

MrFun is offline MrFun
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:33 Visit MrFun's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Good for you. Back Kerry .


Hey -- you're actually assuming I seriously consider your advice -- interesting.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:35
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No, I think repetition may help subliminally .

Whoha is offline Whoha
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:36
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I'm pretty sure the scotus doesn't have a say in that.

MrFun is offline MrFun
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
No, I think repetition may help subliminally .


Yeah -- you do go on, and on, and on, and on . . . . .







Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:43
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quote:
I'm pretty sure the scotus doesn't have a say in that.


Who knows... it may. If the convention tries to go for ratification by only a majority of voters in half the states or something... the SCOTUS may step in and say even a constitutional convention has to follow the procedures of the Constitution for amendment.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
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Aug 2001
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:49
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quote:


He also said that he isn't going to prejudge OBL's guilt or innocence before any potential verdict, regardless of the fact that OBL has repeatedly taken credit (on tape, nonetheless) for the attacks. Of course, he has issued a release "clarifying" his position.



This guys remarks makes Dan Quayle seem an elder statesman.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS...dean.bin.laden/


It is still unsure if Ben Laden had been the instigator of 9/11, or just had knowledge of the plan after it had begun. Al-Qaeda is a large organization, and they don't necessarily have a strong structure like the US secret services- for obvious stealth reasons.

In any way, someone admitting his guilt has never been a sufficient proof in a trial. So Dean? What he said was bold and courageous, but certainly foolish given the current state of the public opinion.

C0ckney is offline C0ckney
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 30-12-2003 00:56
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boris, seriously, take a day off :/

 
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