30-12-2003 01:06									#31
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Not to threadjack or anything, but is Osama still considered a citizen of Saudi Arabia or was his citizenship taken away?

Based on what I've seen I think the conservatives are frothing at the mouth to have Dean nominated. The National Review had a headline urging Dems to nominate him. The Review seems to think that the voters will be turned off by his rhetoric.

I think that Dean has been shooting himself in the foot for the past few months. He seems to be going the way of Pat Buchanon: Increasingly out on the ideological edge.

If anything I think the Dem nomination will be a heavily contested race, right up to the convention... Maybe Hillary will run

	30-12-2003 01:08									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Not to threadjack or anything, but is Osama still considered a citizen of Saudi Arabia or was his citizenship taken away?

I think it was taken away.

	30-12-2003 01:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Not to threadjack or anything, but is Osama still considered a citizen of Saudi Arabia or was his citizenship taken away? Based on what I've seen I think the conservatives are frothing at the mouth to have Dean nominated. The National Review had a headline urging Dems to nominate him. The Review seems to think that the voters will be turned off by his rhetoric. I think that Dean has been shooting himself in the foot for the past few months. He seems to be going the way of Pat Buchanon: Increasingly out on the ideological edge. If anything I think the Dem nomination will be a heavily contested race, right up to the convention... Maybe Hillary will run

Karl Rove was out with democrats trying to work up support for dean, so just maybe

	30-12-2003 01:24									#34
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quote: In any way, someone admitting his guilt has never been a sufficient proof in a trial.

Edit: Oh, why bother?

	30-12-2003 01:32									#35
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Hello. Reality check. Has there been any power shortages in Vermont?

	30-12-2003 01:34									#36
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Yes, don't you remember the power outtage that hit the NE and Midwest this past August?

	30-12-2003 01:36									#37
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And that was exclusively the fault of the governor of Vermont? Was he a Governor then?

	30-12-2003 01:37									#38
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And a power outtage is significanly different from a power shortage.

	30-12-2003 01:39									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: ``The governor needs to receive advice from time to time in closed session. As every person in government knows, sometimes you get more open discussion when it's not public,'' Dean was quoted as saying. Isn't that almost exactly what the Bush team said?

Obviously the inarticulate Bushies must have just plagerized it from Dean.

	30-12-2003 01:40									#40
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He left the Governorship in January, 2003 to focus on the WH race. Had he remained, he still would've been governor.

Regardless, your question makes no sense... Dean isn't responsible for the Vermont power grid any more than Bush is responsible for natural economic cycles.

Oh, wait....

	30-12-2003 01:43									#41
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this is the best the right can come up with?? oh yeah I'm sure the Vermont ENERGY TASK FORCE was a powerhouse of OIL MOGULS AND ENERGY TYCOONS!!!!



pathetic post Imran...

	30-12-2003 01:45									#42
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No but Cheney has had very big interest in the privatization of the electric power in California. Actually it reflects badly on a preseident that he is not capable of confronting his vice president, when he is obvioulsy corrupt. It also reflects badly on the GOP, but maybe they are so totally blackened with gangrene that they cant reflect anything any longer. (It's the GOP that chooses the VP, not the Preseident, or what?)

	30-12-2003 01:46									#43
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quote: Vermont must upgrade its electric lines, build more power plants or start conserving energy better to avoid future power shortages, according to the people who run the state's high voltage power grid. “We’ve seen a big increase in summer demand over the past three years, but no major power plants or lines have been built in Vermont for about 20 years,” Tom Dunn, a project manager at the Vermont Electric Power Co (VELCO), said.

http://theharlowreport.com/2003/iss...ee/free_box.asp

Sorry, but it's only an excerpt and I don't subscribe to Forbes' European edition.

	30-12-2003 01:48									#44
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT quote: In any way, someone admitting his guilt has never been a sufficient proof in a trial. Edit: Oh, why bother?

What's the matter? Neither I or Dean or anyone with the least brains can deny Osama's responsibility. It's the extent of this responsibility that needs to be determined in a fair trial. Now, I suppose it is what we should understand from Dean's statement. And no, logics tell us that there can't be more proof in someone admitting his guilt than in someone denying it.

And BTW, I personally believe it is very likely that Osama had knowledge of the plan beforehand. However, I don't recall seeing this proved in any way. I find it funny, the way Americans give themselves the right to presume a terrorist's guilt out of empirical deduction, while in the same time denying foreigners this right applied to the CIA, under the pretext that "we can't know what's in the classified document till it's opened".

Perhaps Osama's direct involvement has been proved, in which case I would be obviously wrong. But then, you should bother telling this to me.

	30-12-2003 01:51									#45
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Child, it's called "confessions" and they are totally valid. How else do you read the following from the first OBL video, released in December, 2001:

quote: UBL: (...Inaudible...) we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all. (...Inaudible...) due to my experience in this field, I was thinking that the fire from the gas in the plane would melt the iron structure of the building and collapse the area where the plane hit and all the floors above it only. This is all that we had hoped for.

	30-12-2003 01:53									#46
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quote: UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn't know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

Of course, like I said: why bother?

	30-12-2003 01:54									#47
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quote: UBL: We were at a camp of one of the brother's guards in Qandahar. This brother belonged to the majority of the group. He came close and told me that he saw, in a dream, a tall building in America, and in the same dream he saw Mukhtar teaching them how to play karate. At that point, I was worried that maybe the secret would be revealed if everyone starts seeing it in their dream. So I closed the subject. I told him if he sees another dream, not to tell anybody, because people will be upset with him.

	30-12-2003 01:54									#48
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Ok. There has been a general demand in electic power all over the Us in recent years. This has to do with:

a) the scandal that many elderly people have in the recent summers died from heat exposeure.

b) the subsequent demand for air conditioners, which swallows huge amounts of energy.

c) the demogaphic development which means a need for more air conditioners for the elderly, and the rise in single person households.

d) the general effects of Global Warming.

	30-12-2003 01:56									#49
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quote: this is the best the right can come up with??

The New York Times is now a right wing paper?

quote: pathetic post Imran...

Why, because it shows the hypocrisy of Dean? Critiquing a secret energy task force, while having one of his own? I think Dems need to realize what Oerdin (not a right winger by any streach) has been saying for months: Dean says very stupid things and flip flops.

But of course it is a typical Sava post: Democrats good, Republican bad.

	30-12-2003 01:57									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc Ok. There has been a general demand in electic power all over the Us in recent yeras. this has to do with: a) the scandal that many elderly people have in the recent summers died from heat exposeure. b) the subsequent demand for air conditioners, which swallows huge amounts of energy. c) the demogaphic development which means a need for more air conditioners for the elderly, and the rise in single person households. d)the general effects of Global Warming.

Uh, with the exception of "d" you're talking about a 60 year process, you know? You're making it sound as if there were few air-conditioners until some elderly people croaked 'cause of the heat a few years ago, and then all of a sudden people started buying the things like crazy.

	30-12-2003 02:05									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The New York Times is now a right wing paper? Why, because it shows the hypocrisy of Dean? Critiquing a secret energy task force, while having one of his own? I think Dems need to realize what Oerdin (not a right winger by any streach) has been saying for months: Dean says very stupid things and flip flops.

If the aim of the New York Times was to expose Dean for being a hypocrite I can understand that. However, I think that what the US needs is a partisan liberal press. When has for instance the Washington Times ever exposed a republican for being a hypocrite? Why would the New York Times not be loyal to their supposed credentials to the liberal side of the spectrum?

	30-12-2003 02:07									#52
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quote: I think that what the US needs is a partisan liberal press.

It has one... it just isn't taken that seriously .

quote: Why would the New York Times not be loyal to their supposed credentials to the liberal side of the spectrum?

Because, like the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, etc, it's a paper that tries to be objective, even though it has a bias.

	30-12-2003 02:10									#53
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Uh, with the exception of "d" you're talking about a 60 year process, you know? You're making it sound as if there were few air-conditioners until some elderly people croaked 'cause of the heat a few years ago, and then all of a sudden people started buying the things like crazy.

Some? The number must be in the thousands by now.
The problem might not be new. But any politician will know that the elderly is a significant political force. And i would think that now when death is not an option, people will do anything to prevent that. After all people in the Western world have come to believ that will live forever. Also while air conditioners might once have been a luxury, I would expect now that they are moving into the 'margin' of the market. to keep up the profit, the price would be lowered.

	30-12-2003 02:14									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc And that was exclusively the fault of the governor of Vermont? Was he a Governor then?

So in other words, if there would have been no serious power outage, it's exclusively due to the governor's policies.

BUT if there is a serious power outage, it can NEVER be the fault of the governor's policies.




wow

	30-12-2003 02:20									#55
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Likewise, if [policy] goes well, it's the result of [Bush's/Clinton's] actions. But if [policy] goes poorly, it's [Clinton's/Bush's] fault.

*vomits*

	30-12-2003 02:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It is still unsure if Ben Laden had been the instigator of 9/11, or just had knowledge of the plan after it had begun. Al-Qaeda is a large organization, and they don't necessarily have a strong structure like the US secret services- for obvious stealth reasons.

It really doesn't matter for the purposes of the conspiracy and terrorism statutes in question. It would matter for a state law murder trial for individual victims, but not for purposes of the Federal statues regarding terrorist activities

quote: In any way, someone admitting his guilt has never been a sufficient proof in a trial. So Dean? What he said was bold and courageous, but certainly foolish given the current state of the public opinion.

In and of itself, no, but then you have lots of other evidence that could be produced. What Dean said wasn't particularly bold or courageous, it was silly. It's a moot point until OBL is really proven to be alive, and not just a bunch or remastered tapes, and until he's caught and some course of action is decided upon if he is in fact alive and would be captured.

	30-12-2003 02:32									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The New York Times is now a right wing paper?

they reported it, but the right ismaking this a big deal. oh wait are you the right or aren't you. You bit my head off in the other thread when I said you weren't part of the stereotypical right

quote: Why, because it shows the hypocrisy of Dean? Critiquing a secret energy task force, while having one of his own? I think Dems need to realize what Oerdin (not a right winger by any streach) has been saying for months: Dean says very stupid things and flip flops.

sigh, this is the propaganda smear that the right is trying to do on dean... but it just doesn't fly... there's a BIG difference between attacking the Bush Junta for their energy connections and Howard Dean... as I said before... oh yeah VERMONT is a powerhouse for OIL moguls right?

quote: But of course it is a typical Sava post: Democrats good, Republican bad.

no, my typical posts are Republicans = evil and bad, democrats less evil and bad... and that is still the case.

seriously, if this is the best the dopey right can come up with to attack howard dean, the right is ****ing pathetic.

but this is a knock against the dems as well... if the right was attacking a guy like Bush, they would have all the ammo they needed to EXPOSE Bush's corrupt connections and his pro-corporate/super-rich agenda. But the Dem's are too inept and stupid to bring this type of stuff to the fore front. It's so sad that the American sheeple probably WILL have a more negative view on Dean over this than they will about Bush and his corrupt connections.

And Ken Lay is probably playing golf somewhere planning his next lunch with bush or family get-together when Lay and the rest of those Enron pieces of **** should be in jail. It's good when you can be a corporate criminal and have one of your best buddies be president, looking out for you.

	30-12-2003 02:36									#58
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quote: there's a BIG difference between attacking the Bush Junta for their energy connections and Howard Dean

Actually there isn't. This is why it is biting Dean in the ass. Secret meetings are secret meetings.

quote: seriously, if this is the best the dopey right can come up with to attack howard dean, the right is ****ing pathetic.

Yes, exposing hypocracy is simply a pathetic campaign strategy .

quote: And Ken Lay is probably playing golf somewhere planning his next lunch with bush or family get-together when Lay and the rest of those Enron pieces of **** should be in jail. It's good when you can be a corporate criminal and have one of your best buddies be president, looking out for you.

Do we need to call in JohnT or someone to explain to you, AGAIN, how long it takes to get all the information in cases like this?

	30-12-2003 02:39									#59
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun So in other words, if there would have been no serious power outage, it's exclusively due to the governor's policies. BUT if there is a serious power outage, it can NEVER be the fault of the governor's policies.

Like I said. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference between a power OUTTAGE and a powevr SHORTAGE. The first one can happen in the most over-supplied area, the second one is evidence of an endemic degradation of public infrastructure. Now, the US had a power outtage in the East, while in the West, in California, there was/is a power shortage. That is due to the corporate hijacking and capitalization of the electricity sector. Similarly there is in California a SEVERE water shortage. Whether this has to do with the vast amounts of golf courses of the rich which needs constant irregation, or the immigration of people from Mexico is relevant, as I can foresee where the guilt is going to be placed according to which political affiliation that person has, who is in fact making that assertion, whatever it may be.

	30-12-2003 02:48									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Secret meetings are secret meetings.

So everytime you have meeting, the public needs total acces. Or was the meeting secret because there was no one from the Republicans present?