30-12-2003 06:26									#121
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Can you really expect more from a guy who links to conspiracyworld.com as a primary source?

	30-12-2003 06:26									#122
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT He's taking a chapter from OB's book...

	30-12-2003 06:29									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Oncle B, Dean was wrong not because he said that OBL should get a fair trial, but because he essentially said that WE should not try him but the the Hague should, because that means Osama bin Laden would not get the death penalty if found guilty. To most Americans, this is simply outrageous.

I thought he said he didn't care whether he was tried in the Hague or in the US.

Anyway, if he said anything like he shouldn't get the death penalty, I perfectly understand the outrage and the huge political mistake (though personally I am strongly against the capital punishment, sharing this ideal is not a good thing for an American politician).

	30-12-2003 06:31									#124
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT According to Gallup, 64% of Americans support the death penalty. http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c1gb8328-9176,00.html

But the support is in general decline. So America as the only democratic nation besides Singapore and Japan still have the death penalty.

This reminds me of a Steven Wright joke. Why do they use sterile syringes at lethal injections?

	30-12-2003 06:34									#125
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quote: I thought he said he didn't care whether he was tried in the Hague or in the US.

Which is tantamount to saying the same thing... or so his opponents will claim.

	30-12-2003 06:38									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc He was however ignored by the Republicans as he tried to warn the Bush administration of a possible attack.

The democrats and Clinton ignored him as well while he was president

	30-12-2003 06:47									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Ming The democrats and Clinton ignored him as well while he was president

When who was president?

	30-12-2003 06:49									#128
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While Clinton was President.

	30-12-2003 06:51									#129
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The democrats keep failing to mention that warnings of an attack came LONG before it actually did... and started on their watch. They ignored the facts just as the later administration did... something about a boy crying wolf

	30-12-2003 06:51									#130
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Do you people ever get headaches after debating tripledoc? Just reading some of the ones you've had with him reminds me of a person banging thier head against a brick wall.

	30-12-2003 06:52									#131
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT While Clinton was President.

How could Cinton ignore himself?

Seriously why would Clinton choose to ignore Tenet when he was the one who had appointed him.

	30-12-2003 06:53									#132
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Amazing... they did the same thing with the recession... and the dot.bomb age. I really liked it when somebody on this board blamed the AOL-Time Warner debacle on "Bush's refusal to enact the anti-trust laws", conveniently forgetting that the merger was announced in March 2000 and finalized in January 2001.

Edit: Response (kind of) to Ming.

	30-12-2003 06:54									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Tripledoc How could Cinton ignore himself? Seriously why would Clinton choose to ignore Tenet when he was the one who had appointed him.

'Tis the nature of people, boy. And of politics.

Regardless, Clinton had to appoint a Director of the CIA, regardless of whether he was going to use the agency properly or not.

	30-12-2003 07:17									#134
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Regardless, Clinton had to appoint a Director of the CIA, regardless of whether he was going to use the agency properly or not.

I see. The proces of appointing the person of possibly the most powerful intelligence community, besides the former KGB of course, in the world is simply an off the coff chore that any president will eventually have to find the in between time to do?

In reality the attacks on the American Embassies in Kenya should have raised eyebrows. The information on flight students not interested in how to land or take off should similarly have inspired a further investigation.

Maybe it is some sort of organisational failure, where field agents are not allowed to follow their own leads? This would have something to do with a lack of money. However much the Homeland Security has been derided in the liberal press, I sure hope that the money are well spent. The problem is that the money seems to go away from the senior organisations like the FBI and the CIA, and into the Pentagon (which have taken over the role of foreign policy as well) and the newly created dept. for Homeland security. That particular dept. is going to be a monster of an opponent for any newcoming Democratic president. Also I think that the new recruitment of field agents under the Homeland Security is not neccesarily going to prevent intelligence failures (although it might prevent unemployment), but rather take away funds from perhaps more experienced agents in the more senior agencies.

	30-12-2003 07:25									#135
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quote: I see. The proces of appointing the person of possibly the most powerful intelligence community, besides the former KGB of course, in the world is simply an off the coff chore that any president will eventually have to find the in between time to do?

Pretty much. Depends upon how the President views the CIA (or any agency, for that matter) as to how much time they'll spend thinking about who is going to be the director. Do you actually think there was an interview process, that Clinton spent his time reading resumes? Nah, his choices were first vetted by the staff and he was likely presented with a list of 5-10 "acceptable" names. He probably spent an hour or two with each candidate (well, those he didn't unilaterally strike off the list, that is) and told his Chief of Staff - "let's get the ball rolling on Tenet" before turning his attention to other details.

	30-12-2003 08:20									#136
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quote: Amazing... they did the same thing with the recession... and the dot.bomb age. I really liked it when somebody on this board blamed the AOL-Time Warner debacle on "Bush's refusal to enact the anti-trust laws", conveniently forgetting that the merger was announced in March 2000 and finalized in January 2001.

Yep, and they complained about Republicans blaming everything on Clinton. This just takes the cake with Bush.

	30-12-2003 08:28									#137
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know. There are a lot of Dean supporters who are mad at the Dems too. If Dean goes down to dirty tricks, they may boycott the Dems in the general elcetion.

Nader in 2004.

	30-12-2003 08:34									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Ned 1) Anything done through the UN will not have the Death Penalty -- which IMHO makes the Hague and the ICC permanently useless for trials involving War Crimes or Crimes against Humanity, as these offenses desperately require the Death Penalty to provide an effective deterent and punishment.

Huh? What's wrong with Life Imprisonment? That seems barbaric enough to me.

quote: 2) 9/11 was a crime agains the United States. We should have the first opportunity to try and execute the bastard.

Well, logically, an impartial party should first ascertain if "the bastard" is actually guilty and of what "the bastard" is actually guilty.

quote: Dean's statements on OBL (and for that matter, Saddam) are little more than OUTRAGEOUS.

They do have little low-brow appeal. Meh.

	30-12-2003 08:36									#139
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quote: an impartial party should first ascertain if "the bastard" is actually guilty and of what "the bastard" is actually guilty.

So if a foriegner commits a crime in Canada some impartial country (like the US, say) should try the person?

Don't think so .

If OBL is captured he should be tried in the US. His criminal act happened there.

	30-12-2003 09:04									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So if a foriegner commits a crime in Canada some impartial country (like the US, say) should try the person? Don't think so . If OBL is captured he should be tried in the US. His criminal act happened there.

I don't think the US would be doing anything wrong if Bin Laden was tried in America. But, remember, they were all too eager to create an international coalition against terrorism. Letting The Hague do the job would be a strong move in favor of international justice and multilateralism, which could be a nice thing to do after the Iraq fiasco.

Anyway, since OBL's crimes probably range in the "crimes against humanity area", the court's ability to judge is more important than its location. And in this case, it's the Hague that gets the edge. Would I mind if a war criminal who commited his crimes in Canada (*cough* Pierre Elliot Trudeau) was tried outside? Not really, as long as the prosecutors and the judges are credible, and the process receives international approbation.

	30-12-2003 09:12									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui If OBL is captured he should be tried in the US. His criminal act happened there.

I'm sure there are quite a few countries with a bone to pick with him. He's been behind more than 9/11.

	30-12-2003 09:14									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris the court's ability to judge is more important than its location. And in this case, it's the Hague that gets the edge.

How so? Are US courts incapable of judging crimes against US law?

	30-12-2003 09:17									#143
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quote: Letting The Hague do the job would be a strong move in favor of international justice and multilateralism, which could be a nice thing to do after the Iraq fiasco.

You don't understand... we don't care. Americans want the guy dead and we will balk at any whiny-assed attempts to stop us.

	30-12-2003 09:28									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Verto I'm sure there are quite a few countries with a bone to pick with him. He's been behind more than 9/11.

Besides, has there been any serious inquiry proving him responsible for all Al-Qaeda attacks? I mean, was it proven that all these attacks were indeed the action of Al-Qaeda? Maybe yes, maybe no, I don't know.

But I sure think it would be better if you're sure you're chasing the real culprit, rather than a symbol.

	30-12-2003 09:35									#145
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT You don't understand... we don't care. Americans want the guy dead and we will balk at any whiny-assed attempts to stop us.

Don't worry, I do understand this and don't expect OBL to be judged outside of America anytime soon.
But claiming that "you want the guy dead" has nothing to do with justice anyway.
Just remember that Dean's comments show he is much more diplomatically clever than Bush will ever be. It does take courage to go against most of your citizens' will to make a move that will only have long term, electoraly insignificant though necessary benefits.
Still, even if Dean is elected (doubtful), the public pressure will be too strong an he'll have to submit.

	30-12-2003 09:35									#146
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Unless you're a conspiracy theorist given to wild extrapolations, OBL admitted a number of times in the 12-2001 video that there was an operation, it was his operation, and that he was worried about security leaks. I quoted portions of it earlier in this thread, if you don't want to Google.

	30-12-2003 09:37									#147
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quote: Just remember that Dean's comments show he is much more diplomatically clever than Bush will ever be.

Given that the man isn't in power, they show nothing of the sort. If he's stupid enough to be playing to an audience that doesn't vote, that's his dumb mistake.

	30-12-2003 09:42									#148
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Dean is looking more like Bush every day. It's funny how the pinkos are tying their hopes to Bush's political clone...

	30-12-2003 09:42									#149
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Unless you're a conspiracy theorist given to wild extrapolations, OBL admitted a number of times in the 12-2001 video that there was an operation, it was his operation, and that he was worried about security leaks. I quoted portions of it earlier in this thread, if you don't want to Google.

I know you don't like me debating... but remember, unless an independant court testifies these recordings, one can have its doubts.

If someone is willing to hand them the records, how come he won't disclose where he is hiding... even for a $25 millions reward? And BTW, it is possible that OBL claimed involvement just to stir up his partisans. I reiterate my point: claiming your "guilt" is not a good proof, unless you are pleading it in a trial.

	30-12-2003 09:44									#150
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I quoted portions of it earlier in this thread, if you don't want to Google.

Thanks for the quotes