31-12-2003 03:40									#181
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That's it!

[creaky old-man voice]
Well, my mind ain't what it was back in ought-six, nosiree!
[/creaky old-man voice]

	31-12-2003 04:59									#182
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Ming What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Ask the guys in Gitmo or Jose Padilla or any number of Muslims grabbed by Ashcroft. quote: Kind of letting your biases show aren't you Better to let it all hang out than to hide them and pretend you're objective.

Exactly!

	31-12-2003 05:03									#183
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Ok, so lets see:

Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so.

Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret.

Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now?

Howard Dean has raised about 35% of what an emcumbent president has raised- and more than double his nearest competitor- yup, proven looser.

And as for "Bush hate" not being enough- "Clinton hate" got Bush elected.

	31-12-2003 05:05									#184
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quote: Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so. Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret.

You know as well as I do that 'who' wasn't the issue. 'WHAT' has always been the issue against Cheney's secret forums. 'What' was said there. The 'who' matters not, since it seems everyone has made up their mind about that.

	31-12-2003 05:10									#185
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quote: Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now?

Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

	31-12-2003 05:11									#186
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DD: Apparently the left can. Hatred for Bush makes them lose their sight .

	31-12-2003 05:13									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Dean hold a secret energy forum-when asked to make public who was there, he does so. Cheney holds a secret energy forum-when asked to make publi who was there, the dmin invokes executive privaledge, witholds the information, and fights in the court to keep the secret. You know as well as I do that 'who' wasn't the issue. 'WHAT' has always been the issue against Cheney's secret forums. 'What' was said there. The 'who' matters not, since it seems everyone has made up their mind about that.

Its nice to know you know what I know better than I know...

If you know who, you can ask them what. if you do not know who, you can;t even try. And if you know who, you can better guess what was said (you won;t assume the Sierra club will be asking for greater loggins rights):
If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is..but they won;t even give that. But that is only a pattern- after all, the 9/11 commission had to go to court to pry anything out of this admin.

But again, deeper annalysis is never needed in US politics- soundbites are all we really need- after all, informed people are such a bore to speak to..better the opinionated ignorant! They are better on TV and radio!

HURRAH!

	31-12-2003 05:14									#188
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Anyway as for the idiotic ranting about "proven loser" GePap was doing, it is his thin skinned response to attacks from fellow democrats that give rise to those accussations more than anything else. The shear ignorance of some people.

	31-12-2003 05:16									#189
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quote: Its nice to know you know what I know better than I know...

Well I'd hope you did know that!!

quote: If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is

Riiiiiight... because they wouldn't hammer Cheney on the fact that his group had energy execs (which people know already).

As DD said:

quote: Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

	31-12-2003 05:17									#190
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Yup, exactly the same things! And lets not get into detailed annalysis of this, lets just go with the simplest possible comparison, make judgements based on them and act as if we were speaking knowledgeably! Cuase that is the new American way! God love the modern press! And what is Paris Hilton wearing now? Oh for Christ's sake! Can anyone truely be this blind?

Oh yes, very wise response! I mean, a whole sentence! Of course it makes clear you see the light!

GIVE ME ******* BREAK!

So blind? Whant to have a detailed policy discussion? Fine , lets go. Want to make more meaningless one sentence responses that are supposed to be thoughtfull? Count me out.

	31-12-2003 05:20									#191
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh yes, very wise response! I mean, a whole sentence! Of course it makes clear you see the light!

1) Save the insults for someone that gives a damn.

2) Post something other that an irritating ****ing whine and you'll get a more substantive response.

Damn trolls.

	31-12-2003 05:31									#192
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Wow, first time ever called a troll... yup, cause I am so trollish all the time.

Does howard Dean have the right to criticize the WH for having a secret energy policy meeting? yes it does. Why?

1. The Dean group did have a little more openess in its process (actually held a public meeting, made names publi directly, not through people leaking)
2. For those that don't care about that: Scale matters- what a major does and what a governor does and what a president does are not the same all the time, even if they are all executives. There is a reason the press did not care much when Dean had this meeting in Vermont- the implications were far smalle,r specially given that state level government has smaller control over certain regulations, specially environmental. I work for local government- if the majoy of NYC were to hold a secret meeting about energy policy, sure there would be people complaining, but given that so much of what goes into an energy policy has nothing to do with things the major would have any control over, the consequences to the country are very very different. And scale does matter-the higher you go, the more speak and span you are supposed to be- greater power brings greater responsibility.
Is there some hypocrasy in this? yes, that is obvious. I hate hypocrasy, and certainly this looks bad for Dean- but given the issue of scop I outline above, it is not wrong for him to continue his criticism. What he needs to do is release the transcripts of that 1999 meetings, and forswear any such actions in the future. That is what he needs to do, not end his criticsim of an offense by the president.

	31-12-2003 05:43									#193
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quote: If Cheney made even a list of who was there public, this would not have become the scandal it is..but they won;t even give that.

That's not at all true. The list is as follows:

Tony Alexander, President, 1st Energy Corp.

Howard Baker Jr.,Partner, Baker, Donelson, Bearman & Caldwell

Brian Bennett, Divisional Vice President & Public Affairs Executive, Southern California Edison

Denise Bode, Commissioner, Oklahoma Corp. Commission

Robert Card, President, Kaiser-Hill Co.

Red Cavaney, President & CEO, American Petroleum Inst.

Steve Chancellor, CEO, Black Beauty Coal Co.

Roy C. Coffee, Attorney, O'Connor & Hannan

Tom Cole, President, Cole, Hargrave, Snodgrass & Assoc.

Joe Colvin, President, Nuclear Energy Inst.

Leo P. Duffy, Duffy Group

Don Duncan, Manager, Government Affairs, Phillips Petroleum Co.

Gary Ellsworth, Vice President, Government Relations USEC, Inc.

Irl Engelhardt, Chairman & CEO, Peabody Group

Joe Farley, Counsel, Balch & Bingham

Tom Farrell, Executive Vice President, Dominion Resources, Inc.

Michael Flannigan, Kennecott/Borax

Alex Flint, Johnston & Assoc.

S. Robert Foley, President, Advanced Technology Group
ICF Kaiser

Gay Friedmann, Vice President, Legislative Affairs
Interstate Natural Gas Assn. of America

Ted Garrish, Univ. of California

Jack N. Gerard, President and CEO, National Mining Assn.

Jimmy Glotfelty, Manager, Government & Regulatory Calpine Corp.

James H. "Buck" Harless, Chairman, International Industries

John F. Hay, recently retired as vice president, government and international affairs, Westinghouse Electric Co.

J. Roger Hirl, President and CEO, Occidental Chemical Co.

Hunter L. Hunt, President, Hunt Power Corp.

Sidney J. Jansma, Jr., President and CEO, Wolverine Gas and Oil Co.

J. Bennett Johnston, Johnston & Assoc.

Jerry Jordan, Chairman, Independent Petroleum Assn. of America

Steve Kadner, Aquila Technology Group

Marc Katz, Senior Vice President , National Association of Convenience Stores

Rich Kinder, Chairman & CEO, Kinder Morgan Inc

Buddy Kleemeier, Executive Vice President & COO, Kaiser-Francis Oil Co.

Stephanie Kroger, Partner, Mayor, Day, Caldwell & Keeton

Tom Kuhn, President, Edison Electric Inst.

James Langdon, Jr., Aiken, Gump, Strauss, Hauer & Feld

Richard L. Lawson, retired at the end of 2000 as president, National Mining Association.

Kenneth Lay, Chairman and CEO, Enron Corp.

Robert R. Loux, Executive Director, Nevada Agency for Nuclear Projects

William Martin, Principal, Washington Policy and Analysis

Thomas Merritt, Merritt Tool Co.

Albert Modiano, Vice President, U.S. Oil and Gas Association

W. Henson Moore, President & CEO, American Forest & Paper Association

Erle Nye, Chairman & CEO, TXU Corp.

David N. Parker, President and CEO, American Gas Assn.

Gregg Renkes, Renkes Group

John Sharp, Vice President and Counsel, Natural Gas Supply Assn.

C.J. Silas. retired chairman & CEO, Phillips Petroleum Corp.

**** Silverman, General Manager, Salt River Project

Matt Simmons, President, Simmons & Co. International

Linda Stuntz, Partner, Stuntz, Davis & Staffier

Diemer True, True Companies

John Tuck, Baker, Donelson, Bearman & Caldwell

Jack C. Vaughn, Jr., Vice President, Vaughn Petroleum, Inc.

Malcolm Verdict, Energy Efficiency Financing Director, Alliance to Save Energy

Troy Wade, Wade Assoc.

Stephen A. Wakefield, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Southern Co.

Judy Walsh, Texas Public Utilities Commission

Marshall Whitenton, Vice President, Environment and Regulation Policy, National Assn. of Manufacturers

Pat Wood, Texas Public Utilities Commission

John Wooten, Vice President, Peabody Group

Daniel Yergin, Cambridge Research Association

http://www.nrdc.org/air/energy/aplayers2.asp

------------------------

It is rather shameful that you people can't even bother to research this matter before laying your accusations. However, I've come to expect this of the Left, and I'm glad that I'm here to help.

	31-12-2003 05:47									#194
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And, as a personal opinion, I much prefer an energy council made up of people actually knowledgeable about the energy industry than one with a bunch of malcontents and whiners who know little about what they're yapping about, other than how to play their political constituencies. But that's just me I guess... other people would prefer a bunch of no-nothing enviro's and "low income advocates" forming energy policy.

	31-12-2003 05:54									#195
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT And, as a personal opinion, I much prefer an energy council made up of people actually knowledgeable about the energy industry than one with a bunch of malcontents and whiners who know little about what they're yapping about, other than how to play their political constituencies. But that's just me I guess... other people would prefer a bunch of no-nothing enviro's and "low income advocates" forming energy policy.

Thank you for the list- when was it made public?



You think environmentalist are 'know nothings"? Yup, those sicentist that work with them, where did they go to school? MIT? what a dump! Oh, and energy companies don;t have any constituencies! I mean, publicly traded corporations have only to answer to science and good policy! Ohter motives never enter thier calculations!

So JohnT makes one great post (evidence, links, things to back what he is saying) and then states his prejudices as if they were the truth (they must be!)

Fine, you prefer business making policy over public advocacy groups- fine. I disagree strongly with that, but fine.

	31-12-2003 05:57									#196
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Unless my glasses are totally smudged, so much so that I'm misreading my posts, I'm pretty sure the last post of mine begins with...

"And, as a personal opinion..."

Let me quote Che earlier this thread:

quote: Better to let it all hang out than to hide them and pretend you're objective.

and your response:

quote: Exactly!

What's good for the goose is good for the gander, GePap. But not in your world, apparently.

	31-12-2003 06:03									#197
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Unless my glasses are totally smudged, so much so that I'm misreading my posts, I'm pretty sure the last post of mine begins with... "And, as a personal opinion..." Let me quote Che earlier this thread: quote: Better to let it all hang out than to hide them and pretend you're objective. and your response: quote: Exactly! What's good for the goose is good for the gander, GePap. But not in your world, apparently.

God catch! Yes, you prefaced it by saying it was your opions. I was wrong..(but hey, I was on a roll..or is it Trolls? nah, roll.

	31-12-2003 06:04									#198
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I'm a beyatch that way... I remember what people write and throw it back in their faces at opportune (for me) times.

	31-12-2003 06:06									#199
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT I'm a beyatch that way... I remember what people write and throw it back in their faces at opportune (for me) times.

I don't mind- at least that is a form of debate, as opposed to simply arbitrarily declaring the other person wrong, and posting an opinion as 'proof' of that.

	31-12-2003 06:07									#200
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Hey, hey... che isn't even here!

	31-12-2003 06:48									#201
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By the way, Daniel Yergin wrote one of the best business/industry histories I've ever read (and I've read lots of them - now I'm going through three Enron books): The Prize: The Epic Quest for Money and Power, an near-900 page history of the global oil industry.

	31-12-2003 06:49									#202
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That is a great book. I read it right before interviewing with Exxon...

	31-12-2003 21:56									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui DD: Apparently the left can. Hatred for Bush makes them lose their sight .

Um -- I hate Bush's policies, and I still agree with your logic and reason.

	31-12-2003 22:14									#205
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You're in the center... stop trying to pass yourself off as a lefty .

	31-12-2003 22:21									#206
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My hatred of Bush is based on his policies, and it does not blind me to anything.

Fortunitelly, I have the "power" of making distinctions- given that I don't live in a black or white world.

Oh, and on Dean's other comments:

People critizice him for saying that catching Saddam has not made us safer-
Does anyone have any proof catching him has made the US safer? I have seen none at all given, and things in Iraq are going "normally" for this occupation. And the gov. is saying the threat from Osama is as serious now as on 9/11-So I fail to see how this is a Dean goof, as opposed to an opinion that runs counter to the line war supporters want to sell.

And his 'infamous' Osama Comment- if Osama was caught alive, would he not be given a trial? With evidence having to be brought against him by prosecutors, be they be military or not? Then how in the world is Dean wrong for basically saying he would begin this trail with the assumption of innocence, as he should, that being one of the basic American values?

	31-12-2003 22:58									#207
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Problem with the "assumption of evidence" is that OBL himself has taken credit for the planning and execution of the attacks, in the video of December 2001. Again I quoted excerpts of it earlier in this thread, and even if, legally, these tapes might not constitute a "confession", to most Americans (including I), they do.

Dean is looking to get elected. People are going to hear him question OBL's guilt, while at the same time remember that OBL said that the responsibility was his. They're going to wonder what the hell is he smoking and why anybody that foolish should be elected.

In regards to OBL's trial, yes he would get one, no doubt about it. However, most Americans would demand that he get tried in a court where the Death Penalty is a option, and they would not support a candidate who doesn't care what sort of punishment OBL gets. Dean stated that it doesn't matter to him who tries OBL, but it matters a lot to us.

Again, it's all about getting elected. If Dean is playing to people who don't and can't vote, that's his stupidity. Why should he care if the Europeans (or whomever) think he's more "diplomatic" than Bush - they don't vote.

	01-01-2004 00:28									#208
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui You're in the center... stop trying to pass yourself off as a lefty .

I consider myself a moderate liberal -- it's damn close to the center.

	01-01-2004 00:42									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Ming is a bad situation because no proof of quilt has been produced... yet you then blast away with no proof either. Kind of being two faced... isn't it

So I'm two-faced. My two faces are better than most people's one.

Seriously though, innocent untuil proven guilty only applies to criminal cases. So far, no one's said Cheney did anything illegal, only unethical.

It may not be fair of me to start with a presumption of guilt on the Administration's part but given: they lied about their tax cuts, they lied about the damage to the White House by ex-Clinton staffers, they lied about the Artic Wildlife Refuge, they lied about Iraq seeking uranium, they lied about Iraqi contacts with AQ, they lied about missile defense, they lied about Clinton's anti-terrorism plan, they lied about the Education bill, they lied about Social Security, they lied about Bush's problems at Harken, they lied about Cheney's involvement with Haliburton, etc., at a certain point you just have to demand proof of innocense on the Admin's part.

These people aren't conservatives. They are corporate crooks who are using conservatives to get what they want. The Republican Party sold its soul, and didn't get a very good deal for it either.

	01-01-2004 00:44									#210
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Makes sense to me -- Dean is getting all huffy and puffy with Cheney doing the same thing that he himself did.

I'd like to see the full text of speechs where Dean did that, and not just some quotes removed from context, like the Repugs did with the Wellstone memorial.