30-12-2003 09:48									#151
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Given that the man isn't in power, they show nothing of the sort. If he's stupid enough to be playing to an audience that doesn't vote, that's his dumb mistake.

I take it that talking about what you would like to do if you had the power can have no value whatsoever? Is it a politician's role to have his beliefs, or to masturbate the voters? Well, your sayings pretty much explain the path towards junk, consume and throw away democracy the US has taken.

Now, if ever you cared to read my previous posts, you would recall that I said Dean did a political mistake, obviously, but I still believe he was fundamentally right in holding this position, however unpopular it may be.

	30-12-2003 09:52									#152
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This upcoming election reminds me of an old political cartoon that I saw recently re: the Carter/Reagan election in 1980.

Two panels, side by side, caption underneath. Panel one had Carter saying "We must discuss energy policy.", panel two had Reagan saying "Let's kill the bastards."

Caption: "Election 1980: What message will resonate with voters?"

Tragically, Dean is about as qualified as Carter in re: to a political persona, and is nowhere nearly as qualified as a policy wonk.

	30-12-2003 09:53									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris I take it that talking about what you would like to do if you had the power can have no value whatsoever? Is it a politician's role to have his beliefs, or to masturbate the voters? Well, your sayings pretty much explain the path towards junk, consume and throw away democracy the US has taken. Now, if ever you cared to read my previous posts, you would recall that I said Dean did a political mistake, obviously, but I still believe he was fundamentally right in holding this position, however unpopular it may be.

The purpose of an election is to be elected, not to make yourself unpopular. If you have an opinion that is not shared among the electorate, then by all means, don't share it before election day.

	30-12-2003 09:57									#154
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT The purpose of an election is to be elected, not to make yourself unpopular. If you have an opinion that is not shared among the electorate, then by all means, don't share it before election day.

Seriously, would you rather have a politician lie to you to get elected or tell you the truth in all circumstances? Anyway, we are agreed. It was an electoral mistake, I concede. But purely electoral. Only electoral. Cuz' trust me, if the US is to have any long term planning, it's the best thing to do.
(Example: the military alliance between China and Russia. This is an absolute failure of the American diplomacy).

	30-12-2003 10:14									#155
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We are calling him a moron. He is doing stupid things. Thus, we are probably justified.

	30-12-2003 11:19									#156
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't know. There are a lot of Dean supporters who are mad at the Dems too. If Dean goes down to dirty tricks, they may boycott the Dems in the general elcetion. Nader in 2004.

Haha, he arguably cost Gore the election last time. In fact, since it was down to the wire anyways, I would say he did cost him the election.

I know you're not serious, but I find it kind of ironic that liberals put him up on a pedastol, when in reality he's responsible for putting into office one of the most conservative presidents we've had in a while and one who's done more to piss off the liberals than anyone I can remember... right up there with Reagan, if not more so.

	30-12-2003 18:36									#157
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quote: I know you're not serious, but I find it kind of ironic that liberals put him up on a pedastol, when in reality he's responsible for putting into office one of the most conservative presidents we've had in a while and one who's done more to piss off the liberals than anyone I can remember

Isn't the point of democracy to vote for who you like? The people who voted for Nader didn't put Bush in the White House. They voted for THEIR favorite candidate. To say they should have voted for Gore is to slap them (and their democratic choice) in the face.

	30-12-2003 19:08									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Isn't the point of democracy to vote for who you like? The people who voted for Nader didn't put Bush in the White House. They voted for THEIR favorite candidate. To say they should have voted for Gore is to slap them (and their democratic choice) in the face.

	30-12-2003 20:11									#159
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quote: Isn't the point of democracy to vote for who you like? The people who voted for Nader didn't put Bush in the White House. They voted for THEIR favorite candidate. To say they should have voted for Gore is to slap them (and their democratic choice) in the face.

Yeah, it's like saying "no one should vote for him because no one will vote for him"

	30-12-2003 22:39									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Verto No, I was thinking a big black man. A lonely, big, black man.

Yes, cuz it's so much worse to be raped by a Black man than any other kind of man.

	30-12-2003 22:40									#161
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun You do so well in expressing disagreement without insults, don't ya?

Well, since logic and well reasoned arguments don't work on you, yeah, insults will have to do.

	30-12-2003 22:49									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Ming then why have you already convicted them

Because they act guilty, and because everything else about their administration stinks to high heaven with corporate cronyism. This is an administration with more former CEOs than any other in history, and nearly all of them are from companies that get their money not from superior products or services but from political connnections. To say this Administration is corrupt is an understatement. The real question is whether it was illegal.

	30-12-2003 22:52									#163
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Because they act guilty... To say this Administration is corrupt is an understatement. The real question is whether it was illegal.

Then prove it... as I said, you have already pre-judged them, and you have no facts or proof to base it on. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Kind of letting your biases show aren't you

	30-12-2003 23:00									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Ming What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Ask the guys in Gitmo or Jose Padilla or any number of Muslims grabbed by Ashcroft.

quote: Kind of letting your biases show aren't you

Better to let it all hang out than to hide them and pretend you're objective.

	30-12-2003 23:05									#165
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Well, since logic and well reasoned arguments don't work on you, yeah, insults will have to do.

Logic and reason I understand -- for instance, look at Imran's argument.

Now your arguments on the other hand -- well, I might need a high-powered microscope to find a small piece of logic and reason.

	30-12-2003 23:42									#166
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That's because you are easily distracted by shiny things, which you mistake for logic. You are easily swayed by smoke and mirrors and consistantly refuse to pay attention to the actual substance.

You claim that Imran's argument is logical and reasoned, when, in fact, it isn't. Imran simply compares two surfaces. Imran is claiming that Dean's a hypocrite because he had a strawberry while attacking Bush for having a banana, after all, they're both fruit.

Dean's group was not only bi-partisan, containing both Republican and Democrat, as well as some independents, it also had representation by environmentalists, industry experts, etc. Cheney's group was comprised of former business associates and political doners. Dean released the names of those in his panel. Cheney hasn't, despite being ordered by the courts to do so. Dean's panal saved his state's energy industry. Cheney's allowed even more plundering and pollution.

So are they really the same? Is Dean really a hypocrite?

	30-12-2003 23:47									#167
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Yes, Dean is a hypocrite. He criticised Bush for having a secret energy group not for having a (in your opinion) corrupt energy group. Dean also had a secret energy group, thus, he is a hypocrite.

	30-12-2003 23:49									#168
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quote: You claim that Imran's argument is logical and reasoned, when, in fact, it isn't. Imran simply compares two surfaces. Imran is claiming that Dean's a hypocrite because he had a strawberry while attacking Bush for having a banana, after all, they're both fruit.

Of course I have a logical argument. Dean is a hypocrite for critisizing the secrecy of Cheney's task force because he had a secret task force of his own. IT DOESN'T MATTER who was involved in either. The fact remains that both were secret task forces to decide what to do about energy policy and Dean has hammered Cheney's secret group.

Now he says he did it because Cheney's was represented by businesses and donors. Bull. He hit on it because of its 'secrecy'.

quote: Is Dean really a hypocrite?

HELL YES! Only those who would rather cast aside logic for partisan political gain (I'm looking at you, che) would deny that.

	30-12-2003 23:52									#169
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See, smoke and mirrors.

	30-12-2003 23:55									#170
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Yes your argument is FULL of them.

It'd couldn't be more obvious that Dean is being a hypocrite here.

	31-12-2003 00:00									#171
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Fi on you and your right wing ilk.

	31-12-2003 00:02									#172
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Go join the Dems where you belong .

	31-12-2003 00:12									#173
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's because you are easily distracted by shiny things, which you mistake for logic. You are easily swayed by smoke and mirrors and consistantly refuse to pay attention to the actual substance.

Kind of how you view "facts" or the lack there of. Your retort to my response was to point at some other equally deplorable situation... and not address the issue that you have convicted them with absolutely no proof beyond your opinion. Not what I would call objective. If proof is indeed found (which it just might be) of corruption in this case, I'll be the first one to blast the administration. However... I'll wait to see actual facts... you don't seem to need proof...

On one hand, you seem to think that

quote: the guys in Gitmo or Jose Padilla or any number of Muslims grabbed by Ashcroft

is a bad situation because no proof of quilt has been produced... yet you then blast away with no proof either.
Kind of being two faced... isn't it

	31-12-2003 02:30									#174
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Then prove it... as I said, you have already pre-judged them, and you have no facts or proof to base it on. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Kind of letting your biases show aren't you

Ming, haven't you noticed that the leftist are all about "accusations" and "conspiracy theories." They could care less about "proof." They "know" Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the whole crew are corrupt.

Evidence? Who needs it?

	31-12-2003 02:39									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You claim that Imran's argument is logical and reasoned, when, in fact, it isn't. Imran simply compares two surfaces. Imran is claiming that Dean's a hypocrite because he had a strawberry while attacking Bush for having a banana, after all, they're both fruit. Of course I have a logical argument. Dean is a hypocrite for critisizing the secrecy of Cheney's task force because he had a secret task force of his own. IT DOESN'T MATTER who was involved in either. The fact remains that both were secret task forces to decide what to do about energy policy and Dean has hammered Cheney's secret group. Now he says he did it because Cheney's was represented by businesses and donors. Bull. He hit on it because of its 'secrecy'. quote: Is Dean really a hypocrite? HELL YES! Only those who would rather cast aside logic for partisan political gain (I'm looking at you, che) would deny that.

Makes sense to me -- Dean is getting all huffy and puffy with Cheney doing the same thing that he himself did.

So I agree -- they're different circumstances, but the point is that Dean criticized Cheney for holding a secret meeting -- just as he himself held a secret meeting.

Even if I agree that Cheney's secret meeting was more corrupt, Dean still attacked him for doing what he himself did.

	31-12-2003 02:41									#176
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Well... they probably are But that's not the point. Che likes to state it as if it was a proven fact. And it's not. As I said, I will be the first one to abuse the administration if that is indeed the case... but damn... prove it first before you say in just about every post

	31-12-2003 02:48									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I will be the first one to abuse the administration if that is indeed the case

	31-12-2003 02:52									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Well... they probably are But that's not the point. Che likes to state it as if it was a proven fact. And it's not. As I said, I will be the first one to abuse the administration if that is indeed the case... but damn... prove it first before you say in just about every post

Well Ming -- Chegitz sometimes can't help himself.

He throws logic and reason out the window, and starts masturbating over fantastic concepts like non-hypocritical politicians, and a future communist revolution.

	31-12-2003 02:53									#179
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But CT... I actually will. While I am a republican, it doesn't mean I'm a brain dead righty who believes they can do no wrong. I have no problem abusing the current admin if I think they have screwed up. Just like I abused the prior admin

	31-12-2003 03:31									#180
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT This upcoming election reminds me of an old political cartoon that I saw recently re: the Carter/Reagan election in 1980. Two panels, side by side, caption underneath. Panel one had Carter saying "We must discuss energy policy.", panel two had Reagan saying "Let's kill the bastards." Caption: "Election 1980: What message will resonate with voters?"

The Onion Presents: Our Dumb Century isn't that old.