31-12-2003 04:12									#1
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ME peace is obviously impossible, in the way that plans such as RoadMap see it. Peaceful states of Israel and Palestine side by side, and what not.

Here's the article:

quote: That is how deep the hatred of Israel and Jews is in much of the Muslim world If you want to understand the Middle East conflict, Iran has just provided all you need to know. A massive earthquake kills between 20,000 and 40,000 Iranians, and the government of Iran announces that help is welcome from every country in the world ... except Israel. This little-reported news item is of great significance. It begs commentary. Israel not only has the world's most experienced crews in quickly finding survivors in bombed out buildings, it is also a mere two-hour flight from Iran. In other words, no country in the world would come close to Israel in its ability to save Iranian lives quickly. But none of this means anything to the rulers of Iran. The Islamic government of Iran has announced to the world that it is better for fellow countrymen and fellow Muslims – men, women and children – to die buried under rubble than to be saved by a Jew from Israel. That is how deep the hatred of Israel and Jews is in much of the Muslim world. Hundreds of millions of Muslims – Arab and non-Arab, Sunni and Shia – hate Israel more than they love life. Leaders of the Palestinian terror organization Hamas repeatedly state, "We love death more than the Jews love life." And now, Iran announces that it is better for a Muslim to asphyxiate under the earth than be rescued by a Jew from Israel. Naive Westerners – which includes most academics, intellectuals, members of the international news media, and nearly all others on the left – refuse to acknowledge the uniqueness of the Arab-Muslim hatred of Israel and Jews. Yet, there is no hatred in the world analogous to it. Not since the Nazi hatred of Jews has humanity witnessed such hate. That is why finding survivors from earthquakes, creating a Palestinian state and life itself are all far less important in much of the Islamic and Arab worlds than killing Jews and destroying the little Jewish state. That is why Arab newspapers run articles by Arab professors describing how Jews butcher non-Jewish children to use their blood for holiday meals. That is why Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad could get a standing ovation from the heads of every Muslim country when he told them "the Jews rule the world by proxy." That is why Palestinian parents celebrate the suicide terror of their sons – the joy of killing Israeli families far outweighs the pain of the death of their child. Western naifs like to believe platitudes such as "Deep down, all people are really the same," "All people want peace," and the great untruth of multiculturalism that no culture is morally superior to another. That is why they choose not to face the truth about the Nazi-like hatred that permeates the Arab-Muslim world and the consequent moral gulf that exists between it and Israel. It shatters too many of their illusions. Surely the Iranian refusal of rescuers from the Jewish state ought to help all these people acknowledge the unique hatred that is at the root of the Arab-Israeli dispute and recognize it is, therefore, a conflict unlike any other on earth. So, too, the immediate and sincere Israeli offer of rescuers to Iran should make the moral gulf between Israel and its enemies as clear as day. Despite the fact that Iran is the greatest backer of anti-Israel (and anti-American) terror and despite the fact that Iran repeatedly declares that Israel must be annihilated (in other words, seeks a second Jewish Holocaust), Israel offered to send its people to save Iranian lives. The two reactions – Iran's preference for Iranian deaths to Israeli help and the Jewish state's instinctive offer to help save Iranian lives – ought to be enough anyone needs to understand the source of the Middle East conflict. But they won't. Because those who are anti-Israel or "evenhanded" are not so because of the facts, but despite them.

The boldings are mine.

	31-12-2003 04:14									#2
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but you don't live in the ME, so don't lecture us.

	31-12-2003 04:17									#3
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wah wah wah, jews are hated by muslims. booooohooooo

	31-12-2003 04:19									#4
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I never though of that, where they celebrate their sons who have made a suicidebombing.. I think, that it's not very normal behaviour of any kind of human being to praise their sons in joy who have just killed innocent civilians and dying himself in the process, just because they are enemies............. quite sickening IMO.

	31-12-2003 04:26									#5
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 wah wah wah, jews are hated by muslims. booooohooooo

Can you say nothing constructive?

I found it significant -- I picked up on it as soon as I read it, and that is what it was saying to me. I found it chilling that such ignorance could be found in such a place of power.

It's would be like saying, after an earthquake in San Diego, that we would welcome help from anywhere -- except from those filthy Mexicans.

	31-12-2003 04:31									#6
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Thats the Iranian government speaking. I'm sure if you talked to the people in the streets, they wouldnt mind Israeli help. Thats like saying that since the American government invaded Iraq, all americans wanted to.

	31-12-2003 04:51									#7
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And in 1978 the Iranian government was a big supporter of Israel- obviously in 1978 peace in the ME was possible..why was it not done!

Beyond that, what the Farsi speaking, Persian Shiite leaders of Iran think is not any more significant to peace between Palestinian sunni arabs and Israelis than the fact peace exists between Egyptian Sunni Arabs and Israel, or that seminally sunni Turks are allies of Israel.

So stop using this to bolster your own pessimist views of the conflict. You don;'t believe peace is possible, fine, but this is worhtless "evidence" for that sad belief.

	31-12-2003 04:53									#8
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GePap, do you truly believe that there's going to be peace without some really fundamental change? I'm talking something really big, like another war like in 1948, or something.

	31-12-2003 04:55									#9
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Solver, where is that article from?

Anyways, things don't change instantly. Give it time. They accepted US help and if the the US govt doesn't f**k it up it might actually go somewhere. And maybe, just maybe Israel is next.

	31-12-2003 05:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Solver GePap, do you truly believe that there's going to be peace without some really fundamental change? I'm talking something really big, like another war like in 1948, or something.

Something fundamental does have to happen- a realization by Israeli and palestinians both to recognize that they live in the same land-and they will have to share it period, cause violence will not solve this issue-the world has moved beyond violent solutions to nationalist questions, and any side that attempts one looses all legitimacy. More Israelis than palestinians have accepted this fact right now- sadly, the rejectionist camps hold the cards in both camps.

That is the fundamental change that will elad to a solution.

Given that I have absolutely no respect for nationalism and states founded on "a nation's rights", a federal multiethnic state would be the solution- that sadly is not going to happen any time soon, so two states sharing the land seems the way to go- but the problem I have stated stands in the way.

	31-12-2003 05:27									#11
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quote: Something fundamental does have to happen- a realization by Israeli and palestinians both to recognize that they live in the same land-and they will have to share it period, cause violence will not solve this issue-the world has moved beyond violent solutions to nationalist questions, and any side that attempts one looses all legitimacy. More Israelis than palestinians have accepted this fact right now- sadly, the rejectionist camps hold the cards in both camps.

The Palestenians will aways be ruled by fundamentalists. Yes, there are many simple people who want peace. But, it's people like Hamas who are in charge.

Link to the article: http://worldnetdaily.com/news/artic...RTICLE_ID=36372

	31-12-2003 05:34									#12
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quote: The Palestenians will aways be ruled by fundamentalists. Yes, there are many simple people who want peace. But, it's people like Hamas who are in charge.

And you base this on? Hamas did not exist before 1981. This conflict goes back to 1917- how then can you possibly make such a claim? Notice how the people who rule the palestinians aren't even Hamas but the PLA, which came from the PLO, which came from a bunch of left-wing groups..so again, what dio you possibly use for such a definitive statement? What historical evidence? What, anything?

	31-12-2003 05:38									#13
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i say we flip a coin. heads we kill all the muslims, tails we kill all the isrealis.

or russian roulette with a nuclear missle system.

	31-12-2003 06:18									#14
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Why not just kill both? Then we aren't seen as playing favorites.

	31-12-2003 06:26									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hueij They accepted US help and if the the US govt doesn't f**k it up it might actually go somewhere.

Or maybe not.

	31-12-2003 06:52									#16
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I doubt that an Israeli contribution would have saved any lives. The 68-strong British team failed to rescue any survivors.

The article is just hate-mongering.

	31-12-2003 07:28									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion but you don't live in the ME, so don't lecture us.

Neither do you. Have fun paying your reperations.

	31-12-2003 07:36									#18
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Sandman, maybe, maybe not. Every possible help should be still given. The people are dying there now, it's cold and all that, the ones that survived I mean. There's going to be whole lots of more victims if there is no extra help soon.....

Funny quote from that story posted:

"Humanitarian issues should not be intertwined with deep and chronic political problems," Khatami said.

------------

So, the problem with Israel according to Khatami is not political. Not even deep and chronical one. Hmm, then what is it, if not political? Why don't they accept Israels help, when he says they don't mix up humanitarian aid with politics?

	31-12-2003 09:00									#19
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Don't forget the Iranian government is at its root a fundamentalist Muslim one, and that a huge part of the population does not support it heartily.

There is such an history of hatred between Jews and Muslims in the 20th century that their reaction is understandable, but certainly not justified. Do you really think Israel would have wanted help from Egypt or Syria if they had been in the same situation? What would the US have said of Russian secourists during the Cold War?

This is a sad story for sure, but it's everyone's fault there: a human's natural desire for vengeance surpassing everything.

And no, Palestine has not always been ran by the fundamentalists. I'm quite sure the suicide bombers only gained importance in the 90s. This said, Israel neither is not very far from Sionist fundamentalism itself.

	31-12-2003 11:44									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Sandman, maybe, maybe not. Every possible help should be still given. The people are dying there now, it's cold and all that, the ones that survived I mean. There's going to be whole lots of more victims if there is no extra help soon.....

They just need tents, blankets, and food now.

	31-12-2003 11:46									#21
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When the US butts out, peace is only a matter of weeks.

	31-12-2003 11:51									#22
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I, too, noticed that little news item ... but I've simply shrugged it off. If people are going to change, they will have to do so on their own. Help cannot be offered if help isn't wanted.

Gatekeeper

	31-12-2003 13:11									#23
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quote: Do you really think Israel would have wanted help from Egypt or Syria if they had been in the same situation?

Yes. But it seems that they wouldn't help, I think, because Israel and Jews are demonised and etc in their education systems and media; if the governments helped they would completely contradict what they themselves are telling their own people in their propaganda.

	31-12-2003 13:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon When the US butts out, peace is only a matter of weeks.

This is wrong. The ME war is largely an autonomous phenomemnon. There has been much involvement from outside (US and USSR), but non of this is the cause of today's war between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Hatred, depp-seated hatred is the main reason behind it.

	31-12-2003 14:48									#25
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I agree with those who say that there are many shades of opinions other than those put forth by the respective political leaders in the ME. Unforunately something that seems to be about as Muslim as apple pie seems to be democracy or almost any real form of representative governance. Instead one group controls the levers of state power which in the vast majority of cases include a large chunk of the media. Compare to Israel where anyone has access to a much more varied set of news sources, and even fairly small groups have some hand in the governance of the country. Sharon is a reaction to the fact that the Palestinians either:

1) Cannot select anyone who is empowered to speak for the in a meaningful way about peace. Those who want peace cannot or will not confront those who would thwart the majority decision to negotiate.

2) Are embarked on a cynical campaign to talk in order to fight better, and fight in order to negotiate better.

Israel tried to make peace years ago, and they found that they didn't have a competent partner. Why give anything when the real negotiations haven't even started?

	31-12-2003 17:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They just need tents, blankets, and food now.

Non-Jewish tents, blankets, and food.

	31-12-2003 21:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I doubt that an Israeli contribution would have saved any lives. The 68-strong British team failed to rescue any survivors.

Probably not. But Israel has helped and rescued lives in such operations before, and while I don't know how they compare to UK rescue teams, they could have had one sizeable advantage - they probably could have gotten there before the British teams given that Israel is a lot closer. And in cases like these, time is an important factor in cases like these, given that you'd want to rescue anyone trapped in the rubble before a major aftershock happens.

	31-12-2003 23:08									#28
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quote: Do you really think Israel would have wanted help from Egypt or Syria if they had been in the same situation?

Yes, for a simple reason. Israel is a poltical rival of Egypt and Syria - obviously. However, just like every civilized country should, it places top priority on the survival and well-being of its citizens. And, if such a thing happened in Israel, they would of course gladly accept any help - whether British, Russian or Syrian.

I'd like to believe that the Syrians would offer Israel help, but I really can't.

	31-12-2003 23:08									#29
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The people of Israel can still contribute, by donating to international organisations like the red cross (which works with the red cresent) .. This is all Political bull.

If you want to help you can, regardless of who you are.

	31-12-2003 23:21									#30
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And it's exactly what Israel does. They've managed to find a way to deliver aid packages to Iran...