04-01-2004 04:42									#61
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The only sure thing I know is that the *Death to America* was not to be taken at face value, and not necessarily intented for US consumption only.

BTW, it is also definitely sure that the US are now closer to their end than 25 years ago.

	04-01-2004 04:57									#62
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quote: The only sure thing I know is that the *Death to America* was not to be taken at face value, and not necessarily intented for US consumption only.

Seems like a pretty tenuous argument to me. What did they gain and what did they lose?

quote: BTW, it is also definitely sure that the US are now closer to their end than 25 years ago.

Allah sure is taking his time. He must be fattening us before the slaughter.

	04-01-2004 05:14									#63
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Seems like a pretty tenuous argument to me. What did they gain and what did they lose?

My argument that it was not for immediat application is not tenuous, it is now well proven.

As I dont share, like you, the principles which inspired the *Death to America*, I am left with a whole range of possible meanings which cannot be weighted in terms of gain or loss that I could measure. Nevertheless, I observe that these words have been shouted for 25 years, and are still shouted; 25 years old people have heared that for all their life. It is likely worth something.

	04-01-2004 05:29									#64
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Normal Iranians are overwhelmingly pro-American and the Islamic revolution has been discredited. But I guess other than that, it fulfilled its purpose.

quote: My argument that it was not for immediat application is not tenuous, it is now well proven.

OK, then let's try long-term application.

	04-01-2004 06:22									#65
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 Thread on the same day that 145 or so french tourists were killed in that tragic airplane accident near Egypt. Nice tact now doubt.

Surely you aren't commenting about the taste of a thread.

	04-01-2004 07:29									#66
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT As I dont share, like you, the principles which inspired the *Death to America*, I am left with a whole range of possible meanings which cannot be weighted in terms of gain or loss that I could measure. Nevertheless, I observe that these words have been shouted for 25 years, and are still shouted; 25 years old people have heared that for all their life. It is likely worth something.

How about "I surrender"?

	04-01-2004 07:36									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Roberto333 How about "I surrender"?

Har Har.

	04-01-2004 08:50									#68
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DL dance!

	04-01-2004 12:58									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Roberto333 How about "I surrender"?

[Answering-to-French-bashing mode]

So funny. I cant wait your next original joke.

[/Answering-to-French-bashing mode]

	04-01-2004 13:12									#70
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quote: Originally posted by DanS This thread doesn't have much French bashing going on. I just made the Little Satan comment to show that no matter what France does to endear itself to the Arab/muslim governments, it is washed away in an instant by couterproductive rhetoric from some quarters. This will continue to be the case while many in the region systematically disregard their own people's interests--even vital interests--for a very tenuous benefit.

What's the deal? Do you believe Chirac opposed Bush, Rumsfeld & Co wrt Iraq to kiss Muslim ass or not? You're contradicting yourself from one post to another.

	04-01-2004 13:32									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Alex DL dance!

Why would osmeone create a DL to say an unoriginal joke?

Though it is pretty obvious that its a DL.

	04-01-2004 15:28									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Har Har.

Nonono. If you're going to do it, do it correctly.

HARR HARR HARR

	04-01-2004 15:33									#73
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Lehar.

	04-01-2004 15:41									#74
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT BTW, it is also definitely sure that the US are now closer to their end than 25 years ago.

Aren't we all.

	04-01-2004 20:47									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Why would osmeone create a DL to say an unoriginal joke?

Because the poster who created the DL is not very original himself?

	04-01-2004 22:38									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, but this issue of the head scarf appears to be a genuine issue among the people of Islamic faith. France has no authority to decide the issue one way or the other.

The laic status of the French Republic is inscribed into the Constitution of the Fifth Republic which states the basic laws of our nation that every legal text and citizen must obey to. Note that our constitution also states that every citizen is free to chose his religion and to practice it.

The laic status of our republic does not prohibit someone to wear conspicuous religious symbols in normal circumstances but only when someone is within a location that is an embodiment of our republic that which public schools and government services are.

This prohibition must be applied to every religion even if the intellectuals of the said religion think that it is necessary to wear the said religious symbol. Why? Simply because the law is the law, because no one can ignores the law and because every citizen is equal under the law.

Some might find this a bit harsh but one has to remember why the laic status has always been part of our Constitution. The French Revolution of 1789 was a reaction against the abuse of the Monarchy that was heavily supported by the Church. One should never forget that the kings were crowned by an archbishop, if not by the pope, technically reminding everybody that the king is hierarchically under the authority of God and thus of the pope. The writers of the "Constitution of 1789" inscribed the laic status of the Republic into the Constitution to be sure it will never be the case again.

The laic status is also linked to the principle of Equality which is also written in the French Constitution. The Public schools are a location where there should be no discrimination and where the future citizens should learn to behave according to the three principles of our nation: Liberty, Equality, Fraternity. To wear any conspicuous religious symbol is a way to cast oneself apart of the others and/or to exclude the others. In a location where Equality is the norm this must not be allowed.

By the way, there is no need for a law as the laic status of the Republic is inscribed into the French Constitution.

	05-01-2004 03:10									#77
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Tamerlin, it seems to people outside France that France IS discriminating against Muslims in this matter even though, as you say, the French constitution forbids it.

Next, you are going to tell me that your State requires Nuns and Priests to change their clothes into whatever is the current French fashion when entering public buildings.

	05-01-2004 03:17									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Next, you are going to tell me that your State requires Nuns and Priests to change their clothes into whatever is the current French fashion when entering public buildings.

Nuns and priests aren't supposed to teach at public school (I expect none of them learns there), at least in their quality of nuns and priests, and they may not wear their religious uniform.
Things are different at the university, where there is no principle of laicity: it is assumed that university students (i.e. adults) can cope with religious proselytism, whereas school pupils are supposed to be too easily manipulable.

	05-01-2004 03:34									#79
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Spiffor, That is not what Tamerlin just said. Perhaps you out to consult with each other to get your story straight.

	05-01-2004 03:44									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, That is not what Tamerlin just said. Perhaps you out to consult with each other to get your story straight.

Do I ask you to consult with Che when you're talking about some American issue?

	05-01-2004 04:02									#81
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We have a Supreme Court case that military uniform regulations that forbid head coverings inside buildings is not a violation of religious freedom of Jewish men who need to wear skullcaps indoors. But this was in the context of the military, which is voluntary in the United States.

Going to school is not voluntary, as I understand it, in France. Nor is it truly optional in modern society. Schooling, at least through high school, must be considered a fundamental right of every person in a civilized society.

If wearing of scarves is a true religious requirement, the result of Chirac's law might be that Muslim girls cannot attend French public schools. Their parents might be declared criminals for refusing to comply with French law if they cannot afford private schools. The end result would be, IMHO, unjustifiable incarceration of Muslims for their religious beliefs.

How is France any better than China when it will jail people or deny them fundamental rights for exercising religion?

	05-01-2004 04:22									#82
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The "False Perception Ned" strikes again :cheer:
I may be mistaken, but I don't think prison is involved at any time for wearing a conspicuous religious symbol at school. The worst punishment I'm aware of is to be expelled from school.

So, to answer your question:

quote: How is France any better than China when it will jail people or deny them fundamental rights for exercising religion?

We do not jail them

	05-01-2004 04:32									#83
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Thanks for your help Spiffor but the problem is not the same as Universities in France do not have a public status but a private one. That does not mean that they are private like corporations are but that they are independant, their status is absolutely not the same as the status of a public school or a government service. The French universities are not an embodiment of the French Republic per se and are not concerned by the current debate.

quote: originally posted by NedTamerlin, it seems to people outside France that France IS discriminating against Muslims in this matter even though, as you say, the French constitution forbids it.

I understand how it can be perceived outside of France as the debate is also mainly centered around the muslims in France. But one should understand why, it is only because the muslims are the only ones that are opposing a principle that is existing since 1789 and which is an integral part of the French Republic. The laic status forbidding religious symbols of all kind is meant to be applied to all the religions without any exception not only the muslims. But once again, the other religions do not have any problem to cope with the rule. This is why I am among those that are in favor of a stricter enforcement of the Constitution, any religious symbol, be it conspicuous or not, should be forbidden in the public schools.

quote: Next, you are going to tell me that your State requires Nuns and Priests to change their clothes into whatever is the current French fashion when entering public buildings.

In theory yes, but we are here in the typical case where it is not really possible to enforce such a law as far as government services are concerned and no one is really thinking about enforcing it in this case.

But Public Schools are an entirely different matter, they are not a location you are only visiting for a moment to accomplish administrative formalities before leaving. On the contrary, Public Schools are "location where you live". Though I don't know at all if a nun or priest can teach work in a public school, I know that our Constitution requires the said teacher to be dressed normally (though not necessarily into the current fashion)...

	05-01-2004 04:32									#84
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Spiffor admits that France denies Muslims fundamental rights because of their religion!

	05-01-2004 04:48									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT [Answering-French-Bashing mode] I wonder how the compulsory wearing of a headscarf by non-muslim women in Saudi Arabia can reconcile with a religious obligation. [/Answering-French-Bashing mode]

Has somebody an answer to this question?

	05-01-2004 04:50									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor admits that France denies Muslims fundamental rights because of their religion!

Choosing and practicing your religion is also a Constitutional right in France but the Laic Status of our Republic is also written into our Constitution. The problem is far more deeper than it seems as many aspects of the French law are concerned.

Practicing your religion does not mean you are entitled to violate the law and exhibiting religious symbols in the public schools is violating the French law even if sending your children at school is a legal obligation you can't substract yourself to.

Excuse me about the very exaggerated example I am about to take but perhaps will it help everyone to better understand the problem. I am also sorry that what I am about to speak of involves a sad aspect of a religion I have much respect for when it is practiced by moderated people.

Everybody knows that some muslims think the "Jyhad" is an obligation and that it requires to kill non-believers. Do you seriously believe France would have to allow crimes on behalf of religion only because doing the contrary would deny the Constitutional right to practice freely ones religion.

The law is the law and France being a laic state can not allow some individuals to ignore some parts of the law because of their religion... whatever it is.

	05-01-2004 04:51									#87
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Tamerlin, the French rule would be acceptable to the extent that it only forbad optional displays of religion. Head scarves are commonly worn by women across the world. There is nothing unique or particularly Muslim about head scarves. Therefor, in my view, there is nothing particularly religious about seeing a woman or a girl wearing a scarf.

The problem here lies not in the Muslims, but in the French who perceive the requirement to wear an otherwise non religious item of clothing to be a religious display. This is nonsense.

If the Amish required thier members to wear black clothes (and they do, IIRC, the French would ban black clothes!

If a religious order required their male members to have tonsures, I am sure the French would require all boys to wear hats.

And why stop there? If French girls were to wear bare middrift clothes in emulation of Britney Spears, the French would ban that as being too American.

The French are becoming a laughingstock in their quest for cultural purity.

	05-01-2004 04:52									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor admits that France denies Muslims fundamental rights because of their religion!

We deny the fundamental right to education to some few people who have a behaviour incompatible with what we percieve as a proper education environment.

As a matter of fact, very few Muslim girls attempt to wear a scarf at school, and those who do often find a compromise with the school director.

Most scarfed girls who make problems are non-Muslims or recent converts. I think it should ring a bell re: scarf as a religious obligation.

	05-01-2004 04:56									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Therefor, in my view, there is nothing particularly religious about seeing a woman or a girl wearing a scarf.

I have yet to see a girl or a woman wear a scarf for something else than religious or provocative reasons. As it is in France, scarves only count as a religious symbol. Just like swastikas only count as a political symbol: you can bet a student wearing a large swastika would be expelled from school godspeed (the ban also applies to conspicuous political symbols)

	05-01-2004 05:02									#90
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I understand your point of view Ned, but the problem has nothing to do about cultural purity or intolerance about the muslims.

I will once again repeat it, the law is the law and no one can ignore it because of his religion or because any other reason.

The problem is that the only ones that are not accepting the rule are some muslims that are often (though not always) recent converts or girls that are submitted to many external pressures coming from their family or their social environment as Spiffor is suggesting it. Would the problems come from catholics it would not change at all my opinion. France is a laic state and must remain so...

We have different opinions on the subject Ned and I don't think we will be able to convince each other... but having opinions and having the right to express them are constitutional rights for both of us.