05-01-2004 23:53									#121
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. But nonetheless wearing large crosses was allowed - is this not true?

No, it isn't! I have never seen people wearing large crosses when I was in the Public School and I don't think it would have been allowed.

quote: 2. BTW you are incorrect about a continuous lay status since 1789 - in fact of course your republic is not continuous since 1789 - the first empire had a concordat with the papacy, France under the Bourbon restoration was definitely Catholic, even the Third Republic was IIUC continued Catholic control of the schools for some years - the laic status quo wasnt really established till 1905, IIUC.

I have never talked about a continuous lay status since 1789, I only said that the principle of a laic status was dating back from 1789. As far as I am concerned I am not considering monarchies and other empires as exemplary form of governments.

About the third republic it seems you have more knowledge about the subject than I do. What is important is that the control of the Republic over the Public School was reestablished. After such a thing it is no wonder they have experienced the need to formalize the laic status of the Republic in 1905.

Now, don't tell me that the laws enacted in 1905 were directed at the muslims...

	06-01-2004 00:01									#122
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Spiffor, bras were imposed on native cultures due to Christianity. Should bras be banned?

	06-01-2004 00:09									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, bras were imposed on native cultures due to Christianity. Should bras be banned?

I can't wait

But in all seriousness, nobody links bras with religion here. Whereas almost everybody links scarves with religion, which makes the scarf a religious symbol, unlike bras.
That's precisely why you'd get the same trouble if you wore a swastika in a public school. In France, the Swastica is linked with nazism, and you'd have to be very convincing to have it passed for a symbol of peace and harmony.

	06-01-2004 00:18									#124
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Spiffor, assume there was a court case about whether some item or clothing or manner of dress was "religious." What is the legal standard? The perceptions of the French people or intent of the wearer?

Suppose, for example, it again becomes fashionable in the US for American women to wear scarves. Would they have to remove them in French schools although there is nothing religious about the scarf to the American?

	06-01-2004 00:53									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Suppose, for example, it again becomes fashionable in the US for American women to wear scarves. Would they have to remove them in French schools although there is nothing religious about the scarf to the American?

Have a better look at the pictures coming from the muslim world and you will see that the way the jihab is weared has nothing to do with the way the scarves were weared when they were fashionable.

	06-01-2004 00:56									#126
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I have known more than one muslim woman who was not devout (if that's the right word). They would occassionally wear the hijab as a part of their fashion. For them it was cultural. [Actually, usually much looser than seen in many pictures.]

	06-01-2004 00:58									#127
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Tamerlin, perhaps. But you are not addressing the issue.

Scarves are universal dress for women. If a woman who is not a Muslim wants to wear one, can she?

	06-01-2004 01:19									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Scarves are universal dress for women. If a woman who is not a Muslim wants to wear one, can she?

Yes, she would have the right to wear it outside or in the halls of the school. But she would nonetheless have to remove it once she will be in the classroom as it is the custom in European countries to remove headdresses when you enter a room, it is not polite to keep them. As the teachers are asking the boys to remove their cap, they have to ask the girls to remove their scarf... Equality.

	06-01-2004 01:26									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin About the third republic it seems you have more knowledge about the subject than I do.

And an ignorant American, who's read ONE - thats right ONE book on the 3rd republic, and never managed to get past Ferry and Gambetta (though i did skim ahead on some of the religious stuff)

Maybe the French public schools have some issues more serious than headscarves?

	06-01-2004 01:30									#130
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Lord of the Mark, it is clear that we Americans do not fully understand the French, and maybe, the European need for cultural uniformity. The French seem to be more afflicted with this need than any other European culture. It exists in Quebec as well.

	06-01-2004 01:39									#131
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark And an ignorant American, who's read ONE - thats right ONE book on the 3rd republic, and never managed to get past Ferry and Gambetta (though i did skim ahead on some of the religious stuff)

I have a book about the Third Republic but I am yet to read it...

quote: Maybe the French public schools have some issues more serious than headscarves?

The institutions of the Third Republic are certainly those I know the least well though I am found of the era. Imagine that from 1871 to 1940, the Third Republic experienced the Victorian age (the great colonial empires), the first World War, the roaring twenties (a great age of exploration and discovery) and the second World War... it was certainly too much for a single Republic.

	06-01-2004 01:43									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Spiffor, assume there was a court case about whether some item or clothing or manner of dress was "religious." What is the legal standard? The perceptions of the French people or intent of the wearer?

The very reason why we're heading to a new law, despite having already adopted laws in the past, is that there is a huge "grey zone" on to what symbol should be admitted or not, and on to what to do with wearers of banned symbols.

The new law does nothing more than giving details, and to name precisely what is banned: headscarves, skullcaps, and "unreasonably large" crosses.

	06-01-2004 01:45									#133
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I guess I know what the new punk rock fashion is gonna be.

	06-01-2004 01:46									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Lord of the Mark, it is clear that we Americans do not fully understand the French, and maybe, the European need for cultural uniformity. The French seem to be more afflicted with this need than any other European culture. It exists in Quebec as well.

This has nothing to do with cultural uniformity, I really wonder how you can say this from the debate that we have attempted to held here... wouldn't it be one of your new and many preconceived ideas about the evil french people who have dared to disagree with your country about a well known subject.

	06-01-2004 01:51									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin Yes, she would have the right to wear it outside or in the halls of the school. But she would nonetheless have to remove it once she will be in the classroom as it is the custom in European countries to remove headdresses when you enter a room, it is not polite to keep them. As the teachers are asking the boys to remove their cap, they have to ask the girls to remove their scarf... Equality.

wait a miunte - i thought someone said that Jewish boys, who wont be allowed to wear skull caps, WOULD be allowed to wear less obviously religious head coverings such as baseball caps - is this not the case?

	06-01-2004 01:52									#136
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I guess I know what the new punk rock fashion is gonna be.

I black hijab with iron studs?

	06-01-2004 01:53									#137
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I black hijab with iron studs?

And unreasonably large crosses

	06-01-2004 02:15									#138
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark wait a miunte - i thought someone said that Jewish boys, who wont be allowed to wear skull caps, WOULD be allowed to wear less obviously religious head coverings such as baseball caps - is this not the case?

A wig would be more appropriate actually.

	06-01-2004 02:21									#139
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark wait a miunte - i thought someone said that Jewish boys, who wont be allowed to wear skull caps, WOULD be allowed to wear less obviously religious head coverings such as baseball caps - is this not the case?

I plaid guilty.
What I said was that there was no law banning baseball caps. I also said such caps would be accepted in the recess yard, but that their acceptance within the classroom would depend on the teacher. Some teachers would understand and tolerate it. Some teachers would hate either 1) the terrible lack of respect that is keeping one's cap indoors or 2) the horrible religious proselytism incarnated by a beseball cap.

	06-01-2004 02:28									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Tamerlin A wig would be more appropriate actually.

how exactly

	06-01-2004 02:28									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Nope, it remains a religious symbol. Exactly like a cross, that remains a religious symbol despite it being not a mandatory wear for Christians.

But apparently, it is not a religious obligation to "many Muslim scholars", which tells me that, like the Burka, it is more culturally driven than religiously driven, and is therefore not primarily religious.

	06-01-2004 02:37									#142
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark how exactly

It was a humorous comment...

	06-01-2004 02:39									#143
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Sorry DP...

Last edited by Tamerlin on 06-01-2004 at 02:48

	06-01-2004 02:42									#144
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk ... and is therefore not primarily religious.

You obviously have no clue about Islam and the muslims in France and Europe.

	06-01-2004 03:01									#145
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Enlighten me.

	06-01-2004 03:40									#146
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This will have to wait until tomorrow as I am about to go to bed, I have to get up early...

	06-01-2004 14:55									#147
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk But apparently, it is not a religious obligation to "many Muslim scholars", which tells me that, like the Burka, it is more culturally driven than religiously driven, and is therefore not primarily religious.

There is no central autherity in Islam. The Quran clear state that woman must wear a head covering an dress modest which does include the Burka. All religious ruleing that are longing standing are base on consense agreement. What one scholar think have no bearing on what other Muslum think. I have the Hijab parment from the El Paso Islamic Center.

In a society which shamelessly pubilicly exposes a woman's body and intimate requirements where nudity somehow symbalizer the expression of a woman's freedom and where the most lustful desires of men are fullfilled unchecked--- it is little wonder such an introspection leads many Muslim women to the decision to wear the hljab. The chosie to wear the hljab is up to the woman not the man.

	07-01-2004 17:29									#148
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Enlighten me.

The vast majority of the muslims have never been a problem in France and Islam followers were even considered as a religious community like the others. Muslim women wearing hijab and other burkas, though not uncommon, were a minority and most of them were women over 40 years old that had not been in the French Public schools.

The hijab among young girls is a very recent problem in France and is unfortunately linked with an integrist view of Islam. It is a result of young muslims boys and girls looking for an identity they have some trouble to find in the country they are living in and who are thus sensitive to the speech of some integrists eager to abuse their disarray.

The hijab issue in the French school is the result of the behaviour of a few excited individuals (no more than ten in a country numbering 60 millions inhabitant), whether the girls themselves or the neighbourhood exerting an unbearable pressure... Such a few misguided individuals can not be allowed to challenge the principles the French Republic is based on (whether you don't like or not those principles does not change anything to the debate) and moreover principles the other religions are obeying to since... say 1905.

What I have written is a very broad view of Islam in France and that is certainly not a judgement over Islam itself. This religion has its place in our world as the other ones. My only complains are about some aspects of the religions when they are opposing the laws of the French Republic, unfortunately the only believers that are currently a problem in France are muslims and I am deeply regretting that a few individuals only are discrediting the whole faith in France.

	07-01-2004 17:39									#149
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For those that would still believe that the scarves our mothers and grandmothers wore are the same scarves as the Hijab we are speaking of in this thread here is a picture of the kind of Hijabs worn in France by the muslim girls opposing the laic status of our Republic.

Attachment: scarfpr0802.jpg
This has been downloaded 41 time(s).

	08-01-2004 01:28									#150
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Tamerlin, the people in the United States that argue for cultural "purity" are often labelled "racist" and/or right wing lunatics. No matter how many clothes you put on this bum, he still stinks. More than than this, I can still see very little difference between this French urge for cultural purity and what Hitler had to say about the Jews dressed in traditional Jewish garb. "Were they German?" he asked.

Today, the French look on the Muslims dressed in traditional Muslim garb and ask, "Are they French?"